Mr. HAVELL. On original homestead work; yes. Mr. O'NEAL. That is progressively less from year to year. Mr. HAVELL. If you consider the normal work the homesteads and the desert entries, but that is a small part of the work of the office. LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE COMMISSIONER Mr. O'NEAL. How many attorneys do you have employed under this appropriation-lawyers, law examiners, people of that sort? Mr. HAVELL. The attorneys in our office were transferred to the Solicitor's office, when all of the attorneys in the Department were brought under the Solicitor. Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let me interrupt to say this, that on page 44 of the bill covering the Land Office appropriation, there is an item cover. ing an assistant solicitor at $5,600, another covering a legal adviso to the Commissioner at $5,000; and Mr. Kirgis, who represented the Solicitor's Office here, stated that those men were not under the direc tion of the Solicitor. He stated-and I think that you will find it as a matter of record-that those men were on special work under the Land Office, requested and desired by the Land Office, and were in no way under the Solicitor's Office. That is something that I intend to have cleared up. Mr. HAVELL. I would like to make this statement, either on or off of the record Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let us get it on the record. Mr. HAVELL. The legal advisor to the Commissioner is, in fact the acting assistant commissioner of the General Land Office. His title is as it is stated here in the justification, but his duties are really those of an administrative or executive officer. Mr. O'NEAL. That is the assistant solicitor? Mr. HAVELL. No. That is Mr. D. K. Parrott, the Acting Assistant Commissioner, who acts in the absence of the Assistant Commissioner He is the signing officer. His title is, as I have stated, legal advisor to the Commissioner-that is his payroll title, but his duties 90 percent of his time are in signing of important decisions Mr. SCRUGHAM. Is the Solicitor of the Interior Department, whose budget is carried under a separate item entirely, the legal advisor to the Commissioner, or is this man referred to here on page 44, in grade 5, the legal advisor to the Commissioner? Mr. HAVELL. The legal advisor to the Commissioner is the acting assistant commissioner of the General Land Office, and has been so to my knowledge for over 20 years. ASSISTANT SOLICITOR IN CHARGE OF POTASH WORK Mr. SCRUGHAM. Who is the assistant solicitor carried under grade 6 just above that point on page 44 of the bill? Mr. HAVELL. That is the gentleman who handles our potash work. Mr. SCRUGHAM. Is he carried as an assistant solicitor? Mr. HAVELL. His pay roll title is assistant solicitor, but he is the expert on potash. EMPLOYEES IN GENERAL LAND OFFICE BEING PAID FROM SOLICITOR'S ROLL Mr. SCRUGHAM. There are a great many law examiners, assistant law examiners, and so on. Mr. HAVELL. They are not solicitors. They are adjudicating clerks, that adjudicate land cases. They are not lawyers in the sense that the Solicitor's Office employes them. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they lawyers? Mr. HAVELL. Oh, yes; a great many of them are lawyers. Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is what we are trying to bring out. Mr. HAVELL. For instance, Mr. Congressman, I am down here as a technical advisor to the Commissioner. I am an engineer, having been in the surveying service for years, and I am also a lawyer. Mr. O'NEAL. Are there any men in your department, and who are being paid from your authorization, that are doing the work of the Solicitor's Office? Mr. HAVELL. None. Mr. O'NEAL. There is not a man listed here, and being paid from your appropriation, that is actually in the Solicitor's Office? Mr. HAVELL. None at all. The reverse of that is true. people in our office handling work for us who are paid from the Solicitor's roll. Mr. O'NEAL. How many of those have you? Mr. HAVELL. Nine. Mr. O'NEAL. They do not appear, then, in your estimate? Mr. HAVELL. They do not appear there. We have Mr. O'NEAL. And you have nine that are paid out of the appropriation for the Solicitor's Office doing work in your office? Mr. HAVELL. Yes, sir; on the legal work, but there is no one paid out of our money that is doing work for the Solicitor. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Did you say that those law examiners are lawyers? Mr. HAVELL. Yes. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they civil-service people? Mr. HAVELL. Yes. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you get them from the civil-service list? Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is requested that a law examiner should be a lawyer? Mr. HAVELL. I would like to make this explanation, these nine people working in our office and paid from the Solicitor's roll, are under the jurisdiction of the Solicitor, although they work in our office. Mr. O'NEAL. Are they doing strictly the work of your office? Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let me take a specific instance. A Mr. Barash appeared at a hearing in which I was interested some weeks ago, representing the General Land Office. Is he carried on the Solicitor's roll, and paid under the appropriation for the Solicitor's office, or is he paid from the Land Office appropriation? 139751-37-pt. 1- -9 Mr. HAVELL. He is carried on the Solicitor's appropriation, and not on the General Land Office appropriation, although he works in the General Land Office on legal work. Mr. FITZPATRICK. He is one of the nine? Mr. HAVELL. Yes. LAW EXAMINERS Mr. FITZPATRICK. Referring to these 14 law examiners, what do they do? Mr. HAVELL. They are really adjudicating clerks. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they lawyers? Mr. HAVELL. Yes, they are either lawyers or have met the requirements of the Civil Service to do that work. Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is not necessary, then, for them to be lawyers? Is that correct? Mr. HAVELL. I would not be surprised but what some of them have shown, by long years of experience, a proficiency that meets the civilservice requirements, although they perhaps may not have a degree in law, but there are not many of them in that situation, if any. But I would not want to make a sweeping statement that they are all lawyers. I know that in the past we have had a case of two where we had to justify an assignment of an employee to one of those positions when he did not have the legal status of an LL. B. Mr. FITZPATRICK. But you take them off of the civil-service list? Mr. HAVELL. Yes, they are all civil-service employees. Some of them are employees who have worked in the office for years and who attended law school and graduated and were admitted to the bar, and then we advanced them to the legal work, the adjudicating work. GENERAL EXPENSES, GENERAL LAND OFFICE Mr. SCRUGHAM. Coming next to page 45, there is the item of general expenses, which reads as follows: For traveling expenses of officers and employees, including employment of stenographers and other assistants when necessary; for separate maps of publicland States and Alaska, including maps showing areas designated by the Secretary of the Interior under the enlarged homestead Acts, prepared by the General Land Office; for the reproduction by photolithography or otherwise of official plats of surveys; for expenses of restoration to the public domain of lands in forest reserves and of lands temporarily withdrawn for forest-reserve purposes; and for expenses of hearings or other proceedings held by order of the General Land Office to determine the character of lands, whether alleged fraudulent entries are of that character or have been made in compliance with the law, and of hearings in disbarment proceedings, $15,009. Mr. HAVELL. The justification which we have submitted in support of this appropriation is as follows: For travel expenses, $2,000. This amount is necessary to enable the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner to make periodical visits to field offices for the purpose of contact and coordination, and to cover the travel expenses of employees detailed to inspect field offices and activities of the public-land service and to invest gate cases of ofhe al misconduct. For printing maps and piats, $4,500. This amount provides for publishing one State map ad reproducing original plats of publie land surveys. Plats are reproduced by lithography, the necessary official file copies being reproduced at the same time as the copies for sale. In this way the Government gets its file cop.es at little or no additional cost, as receipts from sales of piats approximate the entire cost of lithographing. For advertising, $300. This covers the cost of publishing notices in connecwith grazing districts and of advertising restorations of lands in forest expenses of hearings, $7,700. This provides for payment of fees and mileage Government witnesses and of the Government's share of the cost of taking stors in hearings in controverted land cases, where the character of the and allged fraud, or failure to comply with requirements of law is the issue. Frias books, $500. This amount is needed to purchase necessary law books arent nature, as provided by law. 2938 estimate of $15,000 is $1,000 less than the appropriation of $16,000 te 1957 fiscal year. Mr SCRUGHAM. I note that you had an appropriation of $16,000 for 7, and that your estimate for 1938 is $15,000 for travel expenses of fers and employees. Do you have $1,000 less traveling to do at this 2e than you had in the preceding year? Mr HAVELL. No; but the answer is that we feel that that will meet quirements so far as our general expenses are concerned. SURVEYING PUBLIC LAND Mr SCRUGHAM. Under the heading of "Surveying public land," i on page 47 of the bill, is the item Serveving public lands: For surveys and resurveys of public lands, examination x= heretofore made and reported to be defective or fraudulent, inspecting eposits, coal fields, and timber districts, making fragmentary surveys, ch other surveys or examinations as may be required for identification of for purposes of evidence in any suit or proceeding in behalf of the United nder the supervision of the Commissioner of the General Land Office and on of the Secretary of the Interior, $650,000, including not to exceed $5,000 purchase, exchange, operation, and maintenance of motor-propelled qur-carrying vehicles: Provided, That not to exceed $5,000 of this approray be expended for salaries of employees of the field surveying service - rar, v detailed to the General Land Office; Provided further, That not to $10,000 of this appropriation may be used for the survey, classification, *1 of the lands and timber of the so-called Oregon and California Railroad d the Coos Bay Wagon Road lands: Provided further, That this approprimay be expended for surveys made under the supervision of the Commisof the General Land Office, but when expended for surveys that would not se he chargeable hereto it shall be reimbursed from the applicable appronf.nd, or special deposit. HAVELL. The justification which we have prepared in support item is as follows: JUSTIFICATION OF ESTIMATE timate of $650,000 for the fiscal year 1938 contemplates the execution argent cadastral engineering projects now authorized by Congress partment, in the United States proper and Alaska, and of prospective asonably certain of authorization prior to and during that year. etaned estimates to follow, due allowance is made for the current r gram and for the substantial volume of work to be completed this tear under a Public Works allotment of $750,000 made available July 18, 30, 1937, and for such reimbursable activities under the general .. as are being undertaken for other Federal agencies to meet the reecssities of land use and policy. r objectives of cadastral survey expansion remain unchanged. They avior Act grazing districts in Western States and (2) Federal reservea.. parts of the Nation. This broad grouping of land resources from 5t of major survey significance is coincident with the changed policy the tentative withdrawals of all public lands for purposes of classior to placing 142,000,000 acres in grazing districts under the Taylor result is a shifting in varying degree of survey purpose and production - several established survey classifications. example, cadastral surveys made primarily for agricultural disposal are recessary on any considerable scale. The vast withdrawals and the depleted character of the remaining public lands have reduced improvident homesteading to a minimum. And yet prior settlement claims, the potential rights of the States, the need for safeguarding the interests of established farmers. stockmen, and other owners, and the administration of certain acquisition law in the virgin territory of Alaska will require the survey of lands broadly classed as agricultural in moderate degree for many years. But the decline in surveys for disposal is far more than offset by the manifol requirements of survey on the immense Taylor Act domain in Western States The necessities of administration and economic classification of all such lands, the . exchange provision of the act, the amendment approved June 26, 1936, enlarging the areas of grazing districts and opening such lands to entry upon proper classif cation under applicable public land laws and the Executive order of May 6, 1956 providing for the acquisition of isolated tracts under section 14, all require locati and description in terms of the cadastral survey of the General Land Office. A tremendous area in the aggregate of the Taylor Act domain is unsurveyed Also, a considerable part is covered by the older surveys which have deteriorated many of them beyond recovery except by official resurvey. It is therefore eviden: that notwithstanding the considerable amount of work that will be accomplishe this fiscal year in all sections of the country under the regular appropriation, and e Taylor Act and other lands under the $750,000 Public Works allotment, a sub | stantial program of surveys in grazing districts will be necessary next year and fe some years thereafter. The second major survey objective, the vast area within the national reserv tions, including the forests, national parks, and monuments, reclamation, S Conservation, and Resettlement areas, and other permanent withdrawals in mary parts of the United States proper and Alaska, also requires full and prompt atte tion. Departmental authorizations already made and those pending for surveys and resurveys in this group indicate an unusually heavy schedule for next year further the plans of other Federal agencies engaged in administering specific pro grams on the public lands. Of continuing importance, but of limited extent in recent years are cadasts surveys originating in laws designated to conserve economic and human resoures and to protect the rights of individuals and the States to public lands under certain conditions. In contrast, surveys to facilitate the operation of the Miners Leasing Act of 1920, under which nonmetalliferous minerals are held in Federal ownership under a percentage of minerals mined, are in demand in all mineralized areas of the public domain. But among the more prolific sources of modern cadastral work are the Resurvey Acts of 1909 and 1918, which provide for the recovery of obliterated origins public-land surveys under a proper showing as to the necessity therefor. Th work of legally restoring lost and steadily deteriorating corner monuments of the faulty and sometimes fictitious surveys of a half century ago and more, in the interests of orderly administration, land planning and use becomes more pressit and difficult of accomplishment with the passing years. Resurveys should b kept abreast of the administrative requirements of the Federal land laws and the development programs of governmental agencies not only as a convenien in area identification and description, but as a basic economic necessity in tha systematic development and conservation of the public lands. The requirements of cadastral work in 1938 will be on a broader scale the theretofore, and perhaps will justify the adoption of new methods of procedur It can be said with assurance that no survey situation in recent times has offere a more logical and economically attractive opportunity for the creation of a cetinuing work program over a series of years than that of the present. A well co sidered, comprehensive plan of cadastral survey and resurvey expansion under taken in conjunction with the regular work of the Cadastral Engineering Servis would not only be entirely feasible and desirable from an engineering point view, but would furnish the necessary legal foundations for the conservation land resources without the inevitable delays incident to limited funds subject many calls. At the same time, the normal annual appropriation would be k free to promptly meet specific requirements of survey and resurvey on the put lands as authorized by Congress and the Department. The established survey classifications are as follows: I. Original surveys. (a) Agricultural. (b) Nonagricultural and mineral. (e) Cooperative. (d) Miscellaneous. II. Resurveys. III. Office. |