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Mr. Leavy. That is right; a joint committee of the House and the Senate.

Secretary Ickes. Yes, a joint committee of the House and Senate.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, if there is a joint committee I am glad to know it.

Secretary Ickes. Yes; there is.

Mr. Rich. Is it possible to get that joint committee to take any action at this session of Congress?

Secretary Ickes. Well, I think the administration has hopes that it will. That was one of the first messages that the President sent up, asking for these powers.

Mr. Rich. I have been in Congress for 6 years, and it has been discussed every year, and we have never gotten any place with it. I know that you are a driver when you start to do something, and I was hoping you would get to the point where you could help drive this thing through.

Secretary Ickes. You and I have never disagreed as to the policy that should be adopted on the grazing situation, Congressman. It is not within my power.

Mr. Rich. What I want to try to do is to drive it home to the Members of Congress and my associates on this subcommittee that we might be of some service in trying to consolidate these grazing interests.

Secretary Ickes. I think to raise the question now apart from the consolidation act that the President is advocating might not be advantageous, and it raises a side issue which might help to defeat the general act.

Mr. Rich. You are hopeful, then, that we are going to get some place on this consolidation, are you?

Secretary Ickes. I am quite hopeful.



Mr. Rich. Now, Mr. Secretary, you have seen the increasing budget of the Federal Government in your Department, as well as in other departments. Looking at the thing as a whole, you have noticed the Treasury statements, and how fast our funds are being depleted, and how we are going into the red. What have you done in the Department of the Interior in the past year to try to cut down the expenses of your Department, and to increase your revenues in some manner in order that your Department may, if possible, come nearer to balancing the amount of outgo with the income that you expect to receive from it?

Secretary Ickes. It has taken not a little of my energy to fight off Members of Congress who want moratoria on our revenues.

Mr. Rich. Have you been able to hold them back?

Secretary Ickes. I have been quite a stumbling block. I have tried to be. Very frankly I have said to more than one Member of Congress, and that applies to both Houses, that I have not been able to see the justification for asking us to grant moratoria as to certain reclamation districts, for instance, when the reclamation districts have been as prosperous as they have been during the last few years. I think we frankly have to face that situation sooner or later. So far as cutting down administrative expense is concerned, that is practically impossible when we are giving more service to you all the time.


Mr. Rich. As I see the requests here in the budget, instead of being more economical from the standpoint of spending, the requests are for increasingly large expenditures.

Secretary Ickes. It depends upon your definition of economy. If we are giving more service at a smaller ratio, we are being economical and that, I think, we are doing.

Mr. Rich. I suppose every department would say the same thing, but how are you going to come to the point where you are going to receive funds enough to take care of the Government?

Secretary Ickes. I do not know, but I will say this to you, Congressman Rich, that if every member of Congress would studiously refrain from making requests for this, that, and the other thing on behalf of constituents, and I am not blaming them at all, because you have to do that, then we would not be under the pressure that we are under.

Mr. Rich. I have had a lot of requests from people in my district, and I have not come to you and asked for those things, because I knew it was not the sensible thing to do.

Secretary Ickes. If you lived in the West, you would, and you ought to.


Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, you spoke about conservation and the great amount of timber that wo have in Alaska.

Secretary Ickes. Yes.

Mr. Rich. Last year in the Public Lands Committee they spoke of the great amount of pulpwood that we have available in Oregon, and we talked about some of the tracts of timber out there. Is it your idea that we could get enough pulpwood in Alaska and from the reservations in this country to meet the needs of the paper-manufacturing industry, so that we can be self-supporting in that industry?

Secretary Ickes. I do not know whether the timber out there is suitable for making it into paper. Does any one know?

Mr. Buklew. That was developed before the committee here earlier in the healings.

Mr. Collier. Yes.

Secretary Ickes. Mr. Burlew and Mr. Collier say it is. Then it would be a question of developing it.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, information has been placed in the record both in this committee and the Public Lands Committee showing that we have available enough pulpwood in the States of Oregon and Washington and in the Territory of Alaska to supply all the paper mills in this country with pulpwood. If that is the case, should we not develop our own resources and furnish these materials ourselves rather than import them from Russia, Scandinavia, and other foreign countries?

Secretary Ickes. Yes; and that is what we are trying to do to the fullest possible extent in the Department of the Interior.

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dam for both irrigation and power purposes. We should develop the latter, in order to pay for the former.

Mr. LEAVY. And the area immediately contiguous to that, Mr. Secretary, and your geological staff has made its findings and reports on it, and I know it to be a fact, is a highly mineralized area that would consume tremendous amounts of electric energy at a low cost if it were available.

Secretary Ickes. I think that is true.

Mr. LEAVY. And this project is susceptible of developing something like 2 million horsepower of electric energy.

Secretary Ickes. I do not carry such large figures in mind. I can remember how much money I was given as Public Works Administrator, but I cannot carry all of these other figures in mind.

Mr. LEAVY. And the cost of it, as reported by your engineer in charge, Mr. Banks, is a fraction over one mill per kilowatt-hour, that is, the cost of generation.

Secretary Ickes. Yes; I think it would be an exceedingly low cost.

Mr. FitzPATRICK. To whom would you distribute that tremendous amount of electric energy?

Secretary IcKES. If we developed that irrigation district it would use a great deal, and if we develop the mineral lands, they would use a great deal. Here is something that should always be borne in mind: We talk about developing a great amount of electricity in what appears to be a remote region.

The General Electric Co. and other electric companies are developing means of carrying high voltage great distances with no appreciable loss, and I think that even we in this room, the oldest of us, will live to see the day when we can generate power on the Columbia River and transport it hundreds and perhaps even thousands of miles without appreciable loss.

I am not a statistician, but I heard figures yesterday showing that the use of electric power in this country doubles every 7 years, that is, the consumption of it. In certain areas it doubles now every 5 years I do not think we need to be afraid tht we can ever develop electric power in this country that will not have a market.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is what I wanted to bring out, because we are often asked that question.

The (HAIRMAX. They figure now on power being transported a thousand miles, practically. So, it is not a local matter any more.

Secretary lekh, No.

Mr. LEAV). That is a long-range project that runs over a quarter of a century, practically, before completion?

Secretary IcKEN. I do not know. I always like to do things fuster than that myself, and it is necessary to do it as quickly as possible. There is considerable loss on the moner invested if you are dilatori about finishing a thing. None of us would build a building that war. We would not put in the foundation and then wait for years without constructing the supertructure.


Mr. Lrant. You are familiar with the Central Valley project in California"

Secretary lokes. In a way. They are both P. W. 1. projects.

M: LEAVY. But on Grand Coulee you are limited again, and can p birger spend P. W. A. money by reason of the limitation of Con

wretary Ickes. That is right. Mr LEAVY. And that may be true of Central Valley. I am not sriar with the regulations.

Tetray Ickes. That is true of Central Valley. V: LEAVY. Central Valley is a project that meets with your apmutation and approval, and you recommend it to the committee? v etray Ickes. Oh, yes; absolutely. TE CHAIRMAX. The main obstacle, Mr. Secretary, in carrying out

worthwhile measures is the vast quantity of money that it res? pretary IcKes. Yes, sir; that is it. The CHAIRMAX. And we cannot carry them all at once? vretary Ickes. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. Each one has more or less to take its turn?

rretary Ickes. That is right. The CHAIRMAX. At the present time there are some States getting aparatively nothing? Secretary Ickes. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, it is a question of cutting our gart: according to our cloth somewhat?

retary IcKES. No; we cannot do them all at once; that is true. The CHAIRMAN. And we do have to give respectful consideration to estimates of the National Resources Committee and the Budget

e President himself, and the authorities that be, to systematize as normuous amount of work that we have laid, and which is in




Mr. Rich. I was interested, Secretary Ickes, when I wrote you on Foruary 25, in reference to the various organizations that have come DW Tour Department, and those activities that have gone out of rrar Department, because I recall very definitely a year or so ago a atement that you made before the Public Lands Committee on

Gervation, and I am, in a measure, sympathetic with many of * our ideas.

In order to be brief I would like to insert in the record the emeror activities that were established in the Department as given to

in reply to this letter, if that is satisfactory to you. vretary Ickes. That is quite all right. Mr. Rich. And also the new activities that were established in > Interior Department, and the list of activities that were transared to the Interior Department.

rretary Ickes. Yes. The CHAIRMAX. We usually put that in the record of the hearings. : Eink the last time we had 18 new activities. Wr Rich. They list some 20 new activities. The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(The letters and the lists of activities referred to are as follows:)

FEBRUARY 25, 1937. Hon. HAROLD L. ICKES, Secretary of the Interior,

Washington, D. C. MY DEAR MR. ICKES: In order to give your Department the benefit of every possible consideration in connection with requested appropriation, I believe it would be very helpful if you would send me a list of agencies and bureaus under your departmental administration which have been created as emergency activities. Also, kindly note any new agencies or activities brought under your administration since your assumption of the secretaryship.

As one of the members of the subcommittee for the consideration of the Interior Department appropriation bill I think this information would be of value to me at this time. Thanking you in advance for same, I am, Very respectfully,



Washington, March 4, 1937. Hon. Robert F. Rich,

House of Representatives. MY DEAR MR. Rich: In response to your request of February 25, I am glad to send you here with a list of new activities brought under my supervision since assuming the office of Secretary of the Interior, and a list of the emergency activities established in this Department. Sincerely yours,


Secretary of the Interior.


1. Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration.
2. Recreational demonstration projects in national parks.
3. Work camps in national parks.

4. Emergency conservation work in national parks, on Indian reservations, grazing areas, reclamation projects, territories, and island possessions, etc.

Secretary Ickes. The activities listed as 2, 3, and 4 are under the direction of regular agencies of the Department, but they operate as separate units thereunder. This list, of course, does not include emergency projects of the various bureaus and offices of the Department for which separate administrative units have not been established.

NEW ACTIVITIES ESTABLISHED IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT 1. Division of Grazing, Office of the Secretary. 2. Division of Motion Pictures, Office of the Secretary. 3. Petroleum Conservation Division, Office of the Secretary. 4. Boarri of Indian Arts and Crafts. 5. National Bituminous Coal Commission. 6. Consumers' Counsel, of the National Bituminous Coal Commission.


To the Office of the Secretary 1. Inited States Geographic Board. 2. Administration of Puerto Rico.

Se parale Bureau 3. Bureau of Mines.

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