groups for many years that include snow skiing, tennis, little league, pony and colt baseball, hunting, fishing, and badminton. My wife, my son, and myself are all skiers.

One of the main reasons for allowing skiing in San Gorgonio is for the youth of our local communities. I have yet to see any activity that is more fun and healthful for children and that also brings the family so close together in an outdoor sport. It is a wonderful exercise for the entire family and it is a truly exciting sport.

I

San Gorgonio, as a winter recreational area, would provide many more days of skiing for the family than the local marginal areas that we have at the present time, because of its elevation. It would also provide a more demanding terrain for the advanced junior racer. believe this and I have been personally told so by Bob Beattie who is our U.S. Olympic ski coach. Mr. Beattie also brought up a very interesting point concerning a question that the opponents of skiing in San Gorgonio keep repeating. They claim that as it is now, training for cross-country racing is now possible there. Mr. Beattie says this is not true. Cross-country racing is done on prepared, machine-packed courses with a certain amount of facilities and equipment available in the training area.

We have never had a Far West "Point" race or meet in southern California for two reasons. One is that they cannot set a date a year in advance because of our uncertain snow conditions nor do we have the proper race courses. Mr. Beattie has told me that San Gorgonio would provide this and it would even be suitable for Olympic training. For our local junior racers to enter "Point" meets (there is generally three to five a year), they must travel round trips of 650 miles minimum to Mammoth Mountain and as much as 900 miles to the Tahoe area. Some years, it is even difficult for these juniors to enter upon any training program locally, because of the lack of snow. Children must ski on weekends and because of the large crowds, this is sometimes difficult. I have often seen skiers at Snow Valley and Snow Summit limited to three or four runs in a day. I might add they would be at the chair lifts before they opened and would be there when they shut down. Yet I have read and heard our opponents state that we do not need new areas because there are no crowded local conditions! I have skied all the major areas in California, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, and Colorado, and I have never seen skiers wait one-half as long as we do locally. Because of the length of their runs compared to ours, they are able to get many more miles of skiing in during a day. Skiing locally at a major area like San Gorgonio would cost $6 to $8 a day and to travel to other major areas would cost per day at least twice that because of lodging, car expense, et cetera. Even if families have the time, not many are financially able to do this.

Our opposition often states that the use of snowmaking machines permits a long extension of our ski season. I consider this a very unfair argument and untrue. Any skier knows better but many nonskiers are not aware that they cover only a small area because of the operational expense. At most you will find only a few areas covered with manmade snow at the several local areas making snow. It takes about 30 seconds to get to the top and 5 seconds of skiing back to a waiting line of one-half hour. Have you ever seen 500 people trying

Mr. GLS COSTAL Baring and comme members. I am

With the area opened, its many uses could include school winter recreation programs for small children consisting of group trips and including rides up the lift. This for children too small to hike into the area in winter. The fact that schools would also be able to initate winter sports programs, is one to consider. Proper development in their own area, and in a quality facility would enable southern California to field some top winter athletes in Olympic and international competition as they now do in all the other events.

This small percentage of land, situated in any area naturally adaptable to recreational activities including skiing, should be opened to the use of the vast number of people who could benefit from such an application.

I would like to respond to a comment made by Congressman Hosmer earlier in the day when it was suggested that it would be a luxury to expect to walk out of one's backyard into a ski area. This would be the situation for the people who live in my district, because they would be able to do precisely that I believe they should be permitted to do that.

If the Federal Government will permit, in effect, the loan of a certain small area of Mount San Gorgonio, that will be the case.

This natural resource should be available to the greatest number of people, just as the ocean is available to all the people of southern California. This would permit 8 million people to participate on a daily basis if they so desired in a healthy, recreational pursuit.

I wish to enthusiastically ask your support of the bill because of that, along with the other reasons I have set out.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

Now, we will hear from the next witness, Mr. Allison.

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR DALE ALLISON, REPRESENTING VICTOR VALLEY AND YUCCA VALLEY

Mr. ALLISON. I am Arthur Dale Allison, 50 years of age, born December 3, 1914, in Whittier, Calif. I now live in Apple Valley, Calif., and have resided here for the past 9 years.

I am a real estate broker and own my own company along with my partner, employing over 100 licensed salespeople. I am the secretary-treasurer, and owner of 50 percent of all stock in the Albe Land & Development Co., Inc.

I am president of the Apple Valley Chamber of Commerce and also the honorary mayor of Apple Valley.

Being in the real estate profession, I know the beneficial effect a project of this kind will have on cities, suburban districts, resorts, and the entire surrounding areas for miles in all directions.

Many of my friends love to ski even though I don't personally. I have heard their mournful words for years, wishing, crying, pleading for a place to ski. Now there is a chance for these people, and I feel they should have this ski lift.

Skiers traveling to and from the ski lift will be staying overnight in all towns even 50 to 75 miles from the lift. This will benefit merchants in all lines of endeavor.

From the time I was 8 years old until I was 19, every summer was spent with the Whittier YMCA camp, the first years as a camper,

to ski an area the size of a football field? If you are a golfer, can you imagine using a miniature golf course instead of a regular course? These are good illustrations and comparisons. By the way, these snowmaking ski areas charge one-half to two-thirds what it costs to ski a regular area.

How else could our county obtain an industry that would be worth $5 to $20 million a year? Think of the benefits for the people in Big Bear Lake, Mentone, and Redlands. Think of the increased property values in those areas, the jobs that would open up, the money that would be brought in from other communities and even other States. What a wonderful winter attraction this would be for our tourist trade, too.

We, in southern California, need this winter recreation area badly now and we are going to need it even more in the future.

You should change the minds of our U.S. Forest Service who post signs all over saying that their lands are for the benefit of the many and that they believe in multiple use. They certainly are not practicing what they preach when it comes to San Gorgonio.

One last thought-only 2 percent of the Nation's skiers belong to any ski club or ski organizations. Therefore, you will not hear from them as much as you should. But, skiing of today is a young and a fast-growing sport. Please make it possible for our people to ski somewhere in the San Gorgonio area.

I would also like to state that travel time to Mammoth Mountain takes about 5 hours and I believe you will find that, regardless of what some of the people may be saying, you cannot help but save money by skiing at home; it is going to be much safer; and, if there are any questions along this line, I would be glad to answer these questions for the Congressmen.

Thank you very much.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much.

Now, the next speaker, who, I understand, is Bill Hubbard.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM HUBBARD, REPRESENTING BUSINESS AND LABOR, REDLANDS AND SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. HUBBARD. Honorable Chairman and gentlemen, my name is Bill Hubbard, and I represent the Argonaut Club, a local civic booster club.

Some 20 years ago, some of us can remember when it was proposed that the rich iron ore deposit and the Joshua Tree National Monument be excluded from the monument.

We heard the same cry, "They are cutting the heart out of it.” They would say, "Once you let them nibble this little piece away, there will be no Joshua Tree National Monument."

At that time, wise legislators did exclude the Eagle Mountain iron ore deposit and this county and this Nation is millions of tons of steel richer by their foresight.

You are hearing the same cry today, and you will hear it more tomorrow, but there is no merit in it.

The opponents of winter recreation, prior to these hearings, have endeavored to stimulate artificial usage of the particular Big DrawDry Lake areas that we are concerned with. They have conducted

mass rallies and mass hikes into this area to try to give some indication that it is really used more than it is.

Actually, Dollar Lake and Slushy Meadows are the areas of primary usage. In fact, I would say that these two areas are overused because the only decent road-and even it is indecent, that is the road up to the Poop-Out Hills parking lot, which is several miles of rough, bumpy road-the only road is into that area. They are in opposition to any kind of development in this area, good roads into the periphery of the wild area where the public can make use of it, and it does belong to everybody, and it has been suppressed over the years.

Mount San Gorgonio is big enough both for a wilderness area and it is big enough for winter recreation.

We would submit that the Alps are just as beautiful with their tramways and their ski lifts. They are not one whit less esthetic because they have these improvements on them.

As prepared winter playgrounds, the Alps are used by all the people of Europe and the people of the world.

We would like to submit that by the winter recreation development in San Gorgonio, we can have our own winter playground right here in southern California in the middle of 10 million people in the only place suited for it.

Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, sir.

Does that complete the panel?

Mr. HORNIBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BARING. Are there any questions?

Mr. HOSMER. I have just one for Mr. Hornibrook.

Possibly he can state this for the panel.

There is some emphasis on winter recreation for the economic benefit of the county and I understand very acutely why you want it.

But, if at the end of the winter recreation, whatever access road or roads may be built would be closed and locked up tight and remain that way until the next season came along, so that this would be a guaranteed use for skiers only or for winter recreation purposes only; would you have any objections to that?

Mr. HORNIBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. HOSMER. Thank you.

Mr. HUBBARD. I would like to counter that, Mr. Chairman, because I would have an objection.

I would object because at Baldy Notch, Mount Baldy, which is near here, I think winter recreation is a misnomer. People go out for what we call alpine recreation as much in the summertime as they do in the wintertime, and you will find Baldy Notch and others, the other ski areas with this granite-type snow that they have in the summertime as much in usage in the summer, in my opinion, as you do in the wintertime.

Mr. HOSMER. But, that is not a wilderness area at Baldy, such as San Gorgonio is, and, I think these people are trying to retain a wilderness area, as such.

Mr. HORNIBROOK. I think most of us would like to have that area closed in the summertime, and I am sure that is the thing you will find with most of the people. That is, that it be used and open only for skiing.

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