Mr. DEUTSCH. I will see that it is suitably reproduced and I would like to make it part of the record.

Mr. BARING. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(Map referred to in testimony of Mr. Alex Deutsch faces this page:) Mr. BARING. Also, the other map which is referred to will be given to the reporter and will become a part of the file; and, without objection, it is so ordered.

Does that complete the testimony of this group of witnesses?

Mr. SPEICHER. Yes, sir, but did this group answer Congressman Hosmer's question about the 4-hour ski areas from here?

He asked the other group and I would like to answer it.

Mr. HOSMER. I would like for Dr. North to tell us who picks up the litter and trash in the wilderness area?

Mr. NORTH. Mr. McCoy, the operator of the area who has the permit from the Forest Service. Every afternoon, he has a truck go along with helpers picking up cans and wrappers and things that are thrown out by the skiers, so it is kept clean. The same policing job is done in the summer under any chairlift that happens to be used for sightseeing.

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Chairman, I think it only fair that this group be allowed to clear up the matter of the other five sites.

Mr. BARING. Yes; they may do so.

Mr. SPEICHER. There are not any such sites.

Mammoth Mountain is 300-and-something miles away.

Mr. HOSMER. Do you think they were just blowing smoke in their testimony before this committee?

Mr. SPEICHER. Yes, and on that and on his ski area at Heart Bar Ranch. He is really blowing it there, that is way below the snow

area.

Governor Brown has been acquainted with that fact.

Mr. HOSMER. I asked for the unanimous consent of the committee that Mr. Dolder be able to revise and extend his testimony in order to answer the allegation.

Mr. BARING. Without objection, it is ordered.

Mr. SPEICHER. Gentlemen, there is a gentleman from Los Angeles who is very anxious to get his testimony in, he will not be able to appear after lunch, and if you would like to call us back at that time, please feel free to do so.

Mr. BARING. Well, I planned to call on Mr. Pierson before I recessed for the lunch hour.

Mr. SPEICHER. If you would like to hold us for questions on this point, you may do so.

Mr. BARING. In connection with the request of the committee member, Mr. Hosmer, without objection, it is so ordered.

That request was as to Mr. Dolder, was it not?

Mr. HOSMER. Yes; Mr. Dolder.

Mr. BARING. Does that complete the testimony of this panel?
Mr. SPEICHER. Yes; it does, sir.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much.

Now, the next witness is Mr. Mel Pierson.

STATEMENT OF MEL PIERSON, REPRESENTATIVE OF MAYOR YORTY, CITY OF LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

Mr. PIERSON. Thank you for extending your period here this morning for a few short moments so that I could appear before you. I will try to be as brief as possible.

My name is Mel Pierson and I serve on the Los Angeles City Recreation and Park Commission, the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum Commission, the Metropolitan Recreation Youth Services Council, and various other functions within the city of Los Angeles and in the State of California.

I am down here today representing our commission in addition to representating Mayor Sam Yorty, mayor of the city of Los Angeles who asked me personally to come and testify.

Our position is basically this: We are most sympathetic to the views of the Sierra Club, Audubon Society, and the rest of these organizations, and I know of no other city that has put away more open space in what we call a land bank program at the insistence of these groups in trying to help these groups and the city of Los Angeles.

However, we feel that an area such as San Gorgonio, so close to the urban area, needs skiing facilities. We feel that both these groups are so sincerely motivated that you find yourself in a bit of the nature of the dilemma. You cannot, we feel, go completely with one group, or go completely with another group that some compromise must be reached in this matter.

The very future of our country over the next 15 to 20 years is going to be most dependent on all points of recreation but particularly in what we call participant recreation and we would hope that there could be some compromise worked out here where skiing facilities could be incorporated on the Mount San Gorgonio Area, but certainly not to the exclusion of these other groups.

This is the testimony which I have to offer.
Mr. BARING. Are there any questions?

Mr. HOSMER. Yes, I have a question.

Are you familiar with this map which was shown by the previous witnesses?

Mr. PIERSON. No, I am not, Mr. Hosmer.

Mr. HOSMER. Do you know of any plan that, to your own satisfaction, would adequately adjust the equities between the skiers and the other groups with whom you have a most sympathetic feeling? Mr. PIERSON. We have no plan, Mr. Congressman.

I know that this matter should be properly left in the hands of the committee and I think you are just going to have to call the leaders of these groups together and work out some plan that is going to be mutually agreeable to both groups and agreeable to your committee. This is something that has to be done I believe for the best interest of both groups and for the best interest for southern California and, for that matter, our entire country.

Mr. HOSMER. I think where we stub our toes usually is, in relation to cutting the baby in half, is actually doing that without violence to the groups who want to preserve this area for their historic uses and

I would hope that we could gather in this testimony something which we could evaluate where the equities lie in any particular proposal, if someone wants to make one definitely and certainly.

Mr. PIERSON. Well, I am certain that there are many, many proposals that will come before you and I am certain that this committee can make the value adjustments necessary to affect a compromise so we could make more and better use of this area.

Mr. BARING. Do you have a prepared statement, sir?

Mr. PIERSON. No, sir; I do not have a prepared statement.

I do have a letter here, a copy of which I believe I sent you 2 weeks ago, which I asked be made a part of the official record.

Mr. BARING. I have received quite a number of letters from people in this area and I have quite a number here on the desk at this moment along with various telegrams.

I now ask unanimous consent of the committee that they may be entered and made a part of the file.

Without objection, it is so ordered.

(Letters and telegrams, as identified, will be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, Mr. Pierson.

Mr. PIERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It was a pleasure to appear before your committee.

Mr. BARING. The subcommittee will stand in recess until 1:30 p.m. (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene at 1:30 p.m. on the same day at the same place.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. BARING. The Subcommittee on Public Lands will come to order. I am calling Mr. Speicher back for some additional information. Mr. SPEICHER. Prior to our leaving you this morning we offered to return this afternoon with some additional information.

So there will be no misunderstanding on this point, it has been the feeling of those in favor of the bill that we are here for the purpose of presenting testimony in order that the committee may have all of the information possible for the purpose of passing the bill and perhaps it will be found necessary to add some amendments.

The ski association and the people supporting our views want to make very certain that you as a committee may have the answers to any questions you may think necessary to make a complete and fair appraisal of the situation.

If you have any questions for me or my panel, please feel free to ask us those questions.

Mr. BARING. I have no questions.

Does any member of the committee have any questions for Mr. Speicher?

(No response.)

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, sir.

Now, we will call the next panel consisting of Mr. Bob Hale, Mr. John Page, Mr. Al Gonzales, and Mr. Elton Taft.

Mr. Hale, you may proceed.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT L. HALE, NATIONAL SKI PATROLMAN, NO. 2413

Mr. HALE. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Robert L. Hale. First, in order to establish my qualifications to speak to the committee in favor of public use development of Mount San Gorgonio, I would like to present relevant details of my backgrounds, as a skier of 20 years, as a member of the National Ski Patrol, and as a member of the ski patrol team responsible for the surveys of snow amounts and conditions on Mount San Gorgonio taken during the 1962, 1963, and 1964 winter seasons.

As a skier, I have-in common with ever-growing numbers of skiers-known the frustrations and disappointments associated with uncertain and inadequate snow in our local mountains. I, along with the others, have spent endless hours of driving to such areas as Mammoth, June Mountain, the Lake Tahoe resorts and others to find a weekend of skiing during our many dry seasons.

It was as far back as 1947 that I first learned of the marvelous potential of San Gorgonio, and it was in that same year that I learned of skiers' fight to have this area opened by the installation of up-hill facilities. I had little to do with the movement at that time-nothing, in fact, other than signing a petition in favor.

Several years later, I made my first trip into the area. It was an education. Nowhere before, in our local mountains, had I seen such profusion of snow, such treeless slopes, nor such a complete absence of people. Still I was little involved, although I did assist, along with other members of a local club, in carrying material into the area for the first aid caches. Those caches today remain the only protection available to the winter hiker or skier—if he can find them-and if he can get to them.

The issue of San Gorgonio took on the aspects of a lost cause for most skiers after the hearings in 1947. Meanwhile, the skiing crowd grew, and winters became more and more uncertain. I was particularly aware of this because in 1955, I joined an active ski patrol and was in the mountains virtually every weekend.

That same ski patrol work has taken me into many areas of the skiing world. I have become aware of the problems associated with lack of snow to an even greater degree than I formerly was as a weekend skier. I have seen graphically the traffic situations that have arisen with too many cars and too many skiers packed into areas that for a brief weekend had sufficient size. And, I have listened to bitter complaints from one skier after another concerning the inadequacy of both snow and area facilities. I have also become somewhat qualified as an avalanche control patrolman, ski mountaineer, and back country traveler.

This training has helped me to evaluate San Gorgonio from a more technical point of view, both as to the type of snow that exists there as borne out by our own survey-and with respect to its potential for retaining snow cover and worthwhile skiing long after other local areas have dried out. Additional training that I have had, and offices that I have held have included assistant patrol leader at Mount Baldy,