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greatly appreciated. An opportunity is being given here to our young people and others who are interested in this program to have an opportunity to have their say. It is hopeful that out of this hearing can come some technical information and other types of information to see if joint use is possible and still maintain the integrity of the wildlife area.

I am extremely pleased, as Congressman of the 33d District to have all of you present today and to participate in these hearings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [Applause.]

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, Ken.

I would like to introduce from the audience, Mrs. Nancy Smith, the only woman Presidential appointee to the Public Land Law Review Commission.

Mrs. Smith, will you stand, please? [Applause.]

I would also like to introduce Miss Ann Dunbar, who is secretary to Congressman John Saylor, of Pennsylvania, who was not able to make the trip but sent Miss Dunbar as his representative.

Miss Dunbar, please stand. [Applause.]

As previously announced, this is a hearing before the Subcommittee on Public Lands of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs.

The purpose of the hearing here today is to receive testimony concerning H.R. 6891, and related proposals, to provide for family winter recreational use of a portion of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area, San Bernardino National Forest, Calif.

Subsequent hearings will be held in Washington, D.C., at which governmental agencies and national organizations will testify.

This hearing in San Bernardino is being primarily to give local people and those not able to appear in Washington the opportunity to state their views. Accordingly, we would encourage those who intend to appear in Washington to defer offering testimony at this time. There are 232 witnesses who have asked to present testimony. Previously, we asked everyone to file statements. With the number of witnesses which we have, your verbal testimony should be a brief summary of your written statements. We would hope the testimony would not repeat points previously covered.

We have met with the leaders of both groups and with them have worked out a list of key witnesses and have worked out schedules. The time will be divided equally between proponents and opponents. This morning, we will first hear from State and county officials. Then, proponents will present their testimony and will have about 3 or 311⁄2 hours to do so.

The last hour of today's meeting will be reserved for the opponents whose witnesses could not appear tomorrow.

Wednesday, the opponents of the bill will have an equal amount of time to present their testimony. Again, the last hour will be reserved for the witnesses of the proponents who could not testify today.

We hope to give everyone an opportunity to speak. However, I am sure you realize that some may be limited to brief statements not exceeding 1 minute.

The hearings will recess at 12 o'clock and will start again at 1:30 p.m.

The afternoon session will adjourn about 5 p.m.

As I announced, we will hear many officials of the State and county; we will hear them first.

All witnesses of the State and county please come forward and be seated so that we may proceed.

STATEMENT OF WESLEY BREAK, SUPERVISOR OF THE THIRD DISTRICT BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, STATE OF CALIFORNIA, SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. BREAK. Honorable Congressmen, I welcome this opportunity to be heard this morning. I am S. Wesley Break and I am supervisor of the third district, the area for which San Gorgonio is entirely within; it is located entirely within my district.

My board of supervisors have taken action on numerous occasions unanimously opposing the opening of any portion of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area for anything but to be a wilderness as it is today.

I, myself, am very strongly against opening any part of this area. There are different opinions on this but particularly, right now, on the State level, the acquiring of adjacent lands for park purposes, if this is going to be used in this way, we have almost been spinning our wheels to get the State to come in and purchase land adjacent to this so that we could have all of these facilities.

I am going to speak primarily because I am an agriculturalist and we have a water problem in this part of the State which is very important to us. This area is made entirely of decomposed granite. I am awfully sorry you gentlemen could not see it, personally, on the ground on a clear day and before there was any rain or snow so that you could see the type of soil and terrain that you are dealing with.

But, this is going to be very difficult to take care of the affluence from 1,000 to 5,000 and they talk about as many as 20,000 people in 1 day being in this area.

Gentlemen, they cannot be taken care of there. Then, they talk about hauling it out by trucks or tanks. This is going to be almost an impossibility.

We have areas within the county, in the mountain areas, they are having problems with far less people and with far better terrain to take care of the affluence.

So, primarily, we have got a watershed and the only stream that I know of in San Bernardino County where you can lie down and take a drink out of that stream and know that you are drinking good, cold, clear water; and, I think today, the most important thing to San Bernardino and to all of southern California is the water and the water supply, without being polluted. Once it is started to be polluted at the upper levels, then this is going to continue farther and the water at the lower levels of the Santa Ana River of which this is a tributary is suffering today from the intrusion of salt water. The dissolved salt that is in this stream today is one of the alarming factors.

I am not going to touch on many other things because there are several people here who will do that.

Our board is unanimously against opening this area and if you want, I can leave the records of that with you before the meeting is

over.

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Chairman, I have a question.

Mr. BARING. Yes, Congressman Hosmer.

Mr. HOSMER. What is the nature of these records?

Mr. BREAK. These are resolutions of our board of supervisors asking that the area be retained as it is today, without the change. Mr. HOSMER. A cumulative series of them over the years? Mr. BREAK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HOSMER. What is the latest?

Mr. BREAK. Well, the latest one, I think, was just before election time, I think about June 8.

Yes, June 8, sir.

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the last of these be accepted for the record, with the unanimous consent of the subcommittee, and that the remainder be accepted for the file with due reference thereto in the record.

Mr. BARING. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(Minute record of the Board of Supervisors of San Bernardino County, Calif., dated June 8, 1964; and, resolution, dated December 30, 1963, are as follows:)

MINUTE RECORD OF THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS OF SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY, CALIFORNIA

In

At this time, Mr. Harry Krueper is present and comments upon proposed House of Representatives bill 9070 which would exclude the San Gorgonio wild area from the Wilderness Bill and would further set aside the use of a portion or all of the San Gorgonio Wild Area for skiing and other resort type purposes. behalf of various organizations, he requests that the Board of Supervisors reaffirm its previous stand taken in objecting to any type of commercial development within the boundaries of the present San Gorgonio Wilderness area. Whereupon, the Board on motion of Supervisor Break, duly seconded by Supervisor Young, and carried unanimously, adopts the following resolution, to-with: Whereas, there has been presented to and under consideration by the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, H.R. 9070, wilderness bill: Now, therefore, be it hereby

Resolved by the Board of Supervisors of the County of San Bernardino, State of California, That it does hereby affirm its previous actions concerning the San Gorgonio wild area, and further states that, due to its unique characteristics, use by many thousands of persons annually and the large number of children's camps in the area, the Board of Supervisors strongly opposes provisions in Section 3 and Section 5 of H.R. 9070 excluding the San Gorgonio wild area and possible future reclassification of the area, and respectfully recommends and further requests that any reclassification of the San Gorgonio wild area occur only after public hearing conducted by the Secretary of Agriculture in this local

area.

STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

County of San Bernardino, ss:

I, V. DENNIS WARDLE, County Clerk and ex-officio Clerk of the Board of Supervisors of San Bernardino County, California, hereby certify the foregoing to be a full, true and correct copy of the record of the action taken by said Board of Supervisors, by vote of the members present, as the same appears in the Official Minutes of said Board of its meeting of June 8, 1964.

Dated: June 11, 1964.

V. DENNIS WARDLE,

County Clerk and ex officio Clerk of Said Board.

By R. T. NEWELL,

Deputy.

RESOLUTION

On motion of Supervisor Break, duly seconded by Supervisor Dana, and carried unanimously, the Board of Supervisors adopts the following resolution:

Whereas the Board of Supervisors and the citizens of San Bernardino County have expressed their concern and desire to preserve the primitive character of portions of the U.S. National Forest; and

Whereas San Bernardino County is an important segment of the State of California, consisting of one-eighth of the land area of the State of California and comprising more than 20,000 square miles; and

Whereas within San Bernardino County there is a major national forest area within which is located the San Gorgonio wild area; and

Whereas the County of San Bernardino is a part of the southern California area which is now experiencing rapid growth and urbanization, with a present population in southern California exceeding seven million persons and destined to double in population in a comparatively few decades; and

Whereas because of these evidences of growth and the obvious accompanying critical need for all types of recreation and recreation areas: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the Board of Supervisors, by action on this date, reiterates its previous stand and again urges the Public Lands Subcommittee of the U.S. Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, and the House of Representatives in Congress to support and approve a wilderness bill as comparable to that of Senate bill 4 as possible, and to preserve the integrity of the San Gorgonio wild area as it is now classified and used, in order that there may continue to be recreational opportunities in areas preserved in their natural state and as free as possible from commercialization and disturbance by man.

Dated: December 30, 1963.

Attest:

NANCY E. SMITH,

Chairman of the Board.
V. DENNIS WARDLE,

County Clerk and ex officio Clerk of the Board.
By RUDOLPH L. CORONA,

Deputy.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Break, I would like to ask one or two questions. What happens to the visitors who visit this place in the summertime? You are talking about contaminated water. It is my understanding that between 50,000 and 60,000 people use this area in the summer? Mr. BREAK. That is right, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, what happens to the sanitary waste removal? Is it hauled out?

Mr. BREAK. No, sir; they are in the lower levels where it can be taken out. But, you are going to have to supply greater sewage system to take care of it.

I wish that you had gone in and made a trip to Bear Valley to see what had to be done there. That is what is going to have to be done at Running Springs; the same thing which is taking place at Lake Arrowhead. There will be a terrific expense for taking care of the affluence for about the same number of people.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I believe you are going to have increased use in this area during the summer months; greater numbers, probably, than you would have in the winter months?

Mr. BREAK. Well, that may be, sir.

But, I still think that this is something that was set aside and I hope we are looking at a group of people that are going to try to perpetuate some of the area, a little bit of it, that we can leave to posterity so that we can show another generation what it looked like before man destroyed all of it. This is a very small part of the overall in

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San Bernardino County, and it is the largest county in the United States.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am very familiar with winter sport areas.

I have 24 winter sports areas in my own congressional district at the present time.

Mr. BREAK. I understand, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. We have a great many people using them during the winter. We do not have any real problem at the present time. All of these winter sports areas are at high elevations and all the way down to about the 6,000-foot level.

The snowfield that you have here at San Gorgonio is no different than the snowfields that we have at Squaw Valley and at Heavenly Valley or at Mammoth or at any of the other areas.

Mr. BREAK. And is the formation of the land the same, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. Pretty much so. The mountains of California are pretty much the same.

Mr. BREAK. Well, I have been here since 1904, I came here as a lad. I have traveled this mountain area and I have ridden horseback through most of it and I have hiked through a lot of it. I have grown up here.

I have skiers in my family, I have a son who was a skier before he was drafted into the Army or taken into the Army and was injured to the point where he cannot ski anymore. But, his son is a good skier and loves to ski in the mountains. We have areas that can be expanded and the San Bernardino Mountains, there is still more room and snow available that is not being used.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chairman, that answers my questions.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, Mr. Break.

Please leave the material I mentioned with the reporter.

Mr. BREAK. All right, sir.

Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr. BARING. Naturally, we cannot have a display of emotion after every speaker. We are limited on time and it is necessary that you do not applaud.

The next witness is Mr. Hinckley, San Bernardino County Flood Control District.

STATEMENT OF HORACE P. HINCKLEY, CHAIRMAN, ZONE 3 ADVISORY COMMITTEE, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT, SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. HINCKLEY. I am chairman of the Zone 3 Advisory Flood Control District Committee for San Bernardino County, for this flood control zone which embraces the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area.

In interest of time, I will make my statement very brief. Zone 3 of the San Bernardino County Flood Control District embraces the Santa Ana drainage portion of the San Gorgonio Ranger District of the San Bernardino National Forest. For many years, this zone of the flood control district has contributed substantial local tax money directly to this forest to help Federal and State forestry agencies in the construction of heliports, access roads, and pre-fireattack planning and other watershed activities. We have endorsed

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