suffer should this legislation be enacted, but for the winter traffic it would bring to Highway 38. DeBenneville Pines is open throughout the year, as are a number of the Barton Flats area organization camps, operating almost every weekend through the winter and frequently accommodating at operating cost during winter weeks groups of children from such agencies as the State hospitals for the mentally defective.

A ski lift on San Gorgonio, with no overnight facilities for those who went into the area to ski or ride the lift, would increase the traffic on Highway 38 considerably. Since most of these people would be traveling to and from the area in cars, with possible minimal use of buses, and would have to go down the hill the same day they went up, the traffic problem would be enormous if the ski lift were to draw the number of people its proponents indicate. Highway 38 is a twolane road with little likelihood of widening of the road in the immediate future. Even now, winter weekend traffic on the highway is considerable, with organization camp use, use by residents of private dwellings in the area, use by people who come up the hill to enjoy the snow, and use by those who have found the usual road to Big Bear Lake and Big Bear City so crowded that they take the longer route to save time.

Those of us who must use Highway 38 to get to and from our facilities stand in awe of the efficiency of the crews responsible for clearing snow, fallen rocks, and man-tossed litter from this highway. In spite of their remarkable efficiency there are times they cannot keep up with falling snow. As those of you who visited the site know, Highway 38 is far from straight. With a thin layer of snow or packed snow, it is very slippery as well as very winding. During a snowfall it is also invisible to the driver of a car, not only because of the falling snow but also because it is usually right in the clouds (frequently referred to by drivers as "fog"). Those very familiar with the road find driving up the hill under such conditions a trying experience. Those familiar with the road make no attempt to drive down the hill under such conditions. If the proposed ski lift drew the number of people its proponents predict, what arrangements have been made for facilities for those who find the road too treacherous to negotiate on a winter evening?

This board speaks from experience. There have been times the management at deBenneville Pines has had to ask people to leave camp immediately in order to get down the hill safely (sometimes almost on their arrival in camp). There have been other times when weather conditions changed to rapidly that those in camp have been unable to leave for a day or more after the camp session was to have ended. With heated cabins and each person in camp already assigned to a bed, this has not been a major problem for deBenneville Pines. With remarkable frequency, falling snow is accompanied by failing electric power, and electrically operated thermostats prevent our heating systems from functioning. Since everyone at deBenneville Pines under such conditions had already been forewarned to bring warm clothing for day and night, and since everyone there has had warm bedding or a warm sleeping bag, it has been no problem to them down

in our lodge, with a good fire going in the fireplace. What can be done, however, to accommodate the many who might be caught similarly, but unprepared, in the proposed ski-lift area, with or without electric power?

Another area of concern to our members, related to the first point of opposition, is what will be done to provide those who would use the area as it now exists with an alternate facility. Since this facility would be converted for the use primarily of only one special interest group-downhill skiers-certainly some facility must be provided for the multitudes who would lose their use of the area.

The building of a safe and scenic trail and safe and comfortable camping sites can be no small matter. Because we recognize the neutral position required of U.S. Forest Service personnel, we have made no attempt to involve them in our inquiries, even to the extent of trying to determine the cost of building these trails. Our combined imaginations have been unable to guess at the cost. We can only feel somewhat staggered at the thought of the many problems and dollars which must be involved: surveying the land to find the best possible route for a safe trail, possible blasting (bringing in men, equipment, and so forth, necessary for such an operation), clearing the trail down to bare ground, marking and setting markers, levelling the ground in some areas, establishing camping sites the list could go on. Not only must the cost be staggering, but the time it would take to establish an alternate facility must needs stretch into at least a few years. We can only envisage an entire generation which would have to forego the experience of Scouts, Y groups, Boys Club groups, and so forth, to date, to say nothing of the families who would use the facility during this and succeeding years.

Because of the unusual "safeness" of the existing facility, the need for patrols and emergency crews has been minimal. Injuries on the trail are an extreme rarity, and generally no more serious than a twisted ankle. The trail is so designed that there is no place where a hiker can fall down a slope, fall from a ledge, or otherwise sustain more serious injury than he would walking on a well-kept level lawn. To find an area for a comparable trail would indeed be difficult.

The accident and injury rate is quite high for downhill skiers. We can find nothing in the proposed legislation which would handle this problem. This means that the Forest Service, the San Bernardino County sheriff's office, the volunteer San Gorgonio search and rescue team and, possibly, the California Highway Patrol, would have to assume responsibility for handling victims of such accidents and injuries.

While the proposed skilift might bring additional revenues into the coffers of the business establishments in nearby cities and towns, we cannot see how the revenue it would bring into the coffers of San Bernardino County and the State of California and into the U.S. Treasury could approach the expenditures which would be required from public funds for building alternate trails and camping facilities; for providing adequate patrol of Highway No. 38 (one sheriff's deputy would be hard pressed if he had no other responsibility than seeing to it that tire chains were used when required); for providing for the

handling of injured skiers; for the ultimate widening of Highway No. 38; and for the many other public services that would have to be increased considerably to deal with the needs created by this proposed private facility.

Thank you very much, and since Mr. Bartlett had to leave, I offer his statement.

Mr. BARING. Without objection, so ordered.

It will be incorporated in the record at this point as if read.

STATEMENT OF PETER N. BARTLETT, INDIVIDUAL, RIVERSIDE, CALIF.

Mr. BARTLETT. I would like to present the following reasons why H.R. 6891 and related bills should not be passed.

The area under consideration already serves as a family winter recreational area as well as family spring, summer, and fall recreational area.

Many people as myself enjoy cross-country skiing and snowshoeing in areas of natural beauty unmolested by civilization. To construct artificial winter sports facilities in the prime area, the heart of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area, would be to deprive us a place in which we can perform these winter sports since there is no comparable area in southern California.

The group of people which prefer artificial ski areas for their winter recreation already have at least 12 existing manmade ski areas in southern California.

San Gorgonio cannot be the only place in which artificial sports facilities for winter use can be built; it is the only wilderness area. San Gorgonio may have ideal snow conditions and other conditions which would make an easy financial profit for the proponents of these bills, but since ski lifts, skating rinks, artificial snow, et cetera, can be made elsewhere, it would be unjust to deprive the families of the several million people of southern California of the only wilderness area which they depend on for spring, summer, and fall as well as winter use, and to cater to a group of people who are interested in financial profit or who can use the area for only a few weeks a year. As the number of people increases, our natural resources will become limiting and it will become increasingly important to look at natural biological systems in order to see how they are regulated in terms of their populations and resources. If we destroy all of our natural systems, we may lose information contained in those systems, information which may be of great benefit in determining how to regulate human populations and resources. Therefore, several natural regions in this country should be left intact for future scientific biological study. The San Gorgonio area is the only such protected natural area in southern California.

Mrs. BRAVERMAN. I have a few remarks I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, in addition to the statement which has been presented. Mr. BARING. Very well.

You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF MRS. SYDELL BRAVERMAN, REPRESENTING 41 CHURCHES AND FELLOWSHIPS, PACIFIC SOUTHWEST DISTRICT

Mrs. BRAVERMAN. As an elected member of the board of directors of one of these organizations, I have been asked to represent the 41 churches and fellowships in the Pacific Southwest district.

Because the various reasons for the opposition to the legislation on the part of the individual members of our churches and fellowships, my testimony is no different from that which you have heard. I will skip that point. I will go to a specific point that our board is most concerned about that has not been heretofore discussed today.

My point is the increased traffic that it would bring to Highway 38, which is the access road to the camps in the Barton Flats area. Like many of the other camps, we are on Forest Service land.

To maintain our lease, we have to be open 180 days a year. Twelve summer weeks obviously do not meet this requirement. Therefore, most of the time we are always open all winter weekends and frequently during the week. With no overnight facilities for the people who go into the proposed ski lift area, we are very concerned about the additional traffic this would bring to Highway 38 and the possibility that, when snow conditions become too difficult for the maintenance crews to handle on a winter weekend, the increased traffic might bring a stoppage of flow and thus bring about an impossibility on the part of the camps to maintain their facilities and keep open the number of days they have to keep open in order to retain their leaseholds. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, we appreciate your remarks very much.

I know that I promised two or three yesterday during the closing hours when we were going along quite fast that I would take their testimony today, and I think I have contacted them already.

Is there anyone here now who I promised would be allowed to speak here today who could not be heard last night; that is, on the opponents' side?

Mr. MULVANEY. I am still on your list waiting to be heard.

Mr. BARING. I do not have you on my list, I do not think. What is your name?

Mr. MULVANEY. My name is Mulvaney.

Mr. BARING. Well, I notice a lot of people standing up, and obviously we cannot take them all. Let us have some order.

We have promised the other side some time today and we are doing our very best and we have talked with your leaders and have taken the leading statements.

Mr. MARSHALL. Well, Mr. Chairman, there is an inevitable problem. I have been trying to serve as more or less a coordinator of this testimony.

Our analysis of the original witness list indicated that at least 140 of the witnesses who had qualified would be testifying in opposition.

There would be something in the order of 70 such witnesses remaining at this point, depending on how many have given up and gone home.

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We understand the procedures of fairness which this committee has adopted and we do not wish to challenge them; we very much appreciate it.

But, it would be, I think, beneficial for the feelings and the effort that these people have put in if their statements would be submitted for the record as if read into the record, without taking the time of the committee.

Mr. BARING. Well, that request will be granted.

All of the statements which have not been presented here formally may be presented to the court reporter and they will be inserted in the record as if read and made a part of that record.

Mr. MARSHALL. I think this is about as equitable a decision as we could ask for, sir.

Mr. BARING. Now, we-strike that.

The proponents have 1 hour 20 minutes.

Mr. Gene Hallstrand: and Clem Glass.

Mr. KELLER. May I have a point of information, Mr. Chairman? Mr. BARING. Yes, please come forward to the microphone and give your name.

Mr. KELLER. My name is Edgar C. Keller and I merely wondered as a point of information whether or not any other opponent will be heard today?

Mr. BARING. We have finished the time of the opponents; actually, we went over the time.

Mr. KELLER. I had understood that it was probable that opponents would be heard until past 3: 30 or 4: 30.

Mr. BARING. You will remember last night we went until 6 o'clock so the opponents got an extra hour at that time.

Mr. KELLER. Yes, I remember that.

Mr. BARING. Were you on the list?

Mr. KELLER. That is correct.

Mr. BARING. Well, there is just no time remaining.

Mr. KELLER. Well, I am merely inquiring because many people here do not understand whether they are to speak now or whether the time for the opponents has been completed.

Mr. BARING. The time for the opponents has been completed at this time.

Mr. KELLER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BARING. Now, please be seated as quickly as possible or we will not be able to finish these hearings.

Now, please turn all your statements in to the reporter to be incorporated into the record as read at the end of the hearing. All those statements will be included as if read. Now, our next speaker is Mr. Hallstrand.

STATEMENT OF GENE HALLSTRAND, REAL ESTATE BROKER AND FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF SAN GORGONIO SKI LIFTS

Mr. HALLSTRAND. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, counsel, and staff, my name is Gene Hallstrand, a real estate broker, and former executive secertary of San Gorgonio Ski Lifts. I believe my sharing with you gentlemen the highlights of my own experiences during an exciting 14 months in which I was deeply involved in the San Gorgonio controversy will shed some helpful light on an ex