Mr. BARING. The set of petitions, without objection, will be placed in the file.

STATEMENT OF DON DONNELLY, SKIER

Mr. DONNELLY. I speak not as an avid skier wanting only special considerations for his own pleasure and convenience but as an outdoorsman, or if you will, an outdoor sportsman, which includes skiing and its peripheral associations.

My formal training in outdoorsmanship started, I guess, with the Cub Scouts and continued through Scouting into college. I have been hiking, hunting, and camping out as long as I can remember. I started under the tutelage of my grandfather, an amateur naturalist, who taught me more about nature and conservation that I ever could have learned in textbooks. In summer I am an active hiker, having camped along trails in most of the Western States, Canada, and Western Europe.

As a member of the Los Angeles County Fire Department I worked directly in conservation work. My first duty station was Henninger Flats Nursery where I worked in all phases of reforestation. For 5 years I worked in mountain fire suppression, sometimes in the San Bernardino area, e.g., the "stable fire." Because of this experience, I very much realize the importance of good access roads.

I was introduced to skiing in 1958 and became a ski patrolman in 1960. At present, I am an active member and a director of the Long Beach Ski Club. I represent the Long Beach area in the Southern Council of the Far West Ski Association and I write a weekly ski column in the Long Beach Press-Telegram.

The undependable, infrequent snow at our local areas necessitates traveling great distances for skiing. This limits my skiing and creates a real inconvenience. The annual Long Beach All-City races had only a handful of participants last season. Why? Because most local people cannot afford the trip and lodging expenses to the Sierras and when the races are held here the snow is usually so poor that it is hardly worth the effort. Local skiing (when there is snow) is rough on skis too with many rocks hidden just beneath the surface. But of more concern to me are the many people, some of which could be Olympic potential, that for economic and geographic reasons probably will be denied the sport.

Artificial snowmaking is perhaps better than nothing. It is limited though, by extremely high operating costs and poor water supply. At best, it will remain on a level with plastic and other imitation snow hills.

Undeveloped snow fields without management or first aid facilities are for the expert only. The few skiers (and hikers) who brave the area in winter are faced with the constant threat of being stranded there by an accident or unsuspected storm with no shelter and no emergency first aid assistance.

San Gorgonio Mountain offers the only reliable snow conditions in southern California. This obviously was not considered when this wilderness area was created or other arrangements would certainly

have been made. Let us hope that no law of our country is so rigid that it cannot be changed or modified when new considerations are presented. We are talking about considerations involving thousands, maybe millions, of people that will be affected by your ultimate decisions.

The skier is not trying to take anything away from the hiker. As it has been proven at Mountain Baldy, access roads and chairlifts tend to extend the range of the hiker rather than limit it. The fear for wildlife is not justified. The presence of roads, chairlifts, and people does not force away the game as any national park visitor knows. In fact, the wildlife faces its greatest danger in some of the so-called nature defenders. For many years the San Gorgonio area has been referred to as "Poachers' Paradise." It is certainly not the skiing fraternity that commits this type of crime.

We, as winter sports enthusiasts, are not trying to take something away from the public. We indeed feel we have some thing to offer. An area of little value can become an area of great value without destroying its present worth. Certainly the great public-use potential far outweighs any inconveniences to be caused the handful of present users. San Gorgonio, with access roads and lift facilities as stated in H.R. 6891, would become an important part of this Nation's physical fitness program; particularly in our colleges, Long Beach City College and Long Beach State College, and provide Olympic training as well. It would also improve our city's ski functions. The participants in Long Beach City all-city races last season numbered less than 20, due to local conditions of snow.

Nature museums, in the form of wilderness preserves, are a necessary part of our cultural program. Still, with changing trends of our society, when new situations arise and develop, such as the current emphasis on physical fitness and training programs, we must remain flexible in its administration.

STATEMENT OF PAUL REYNOLDS, SKIER

Mr. REYNOLDS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I wish to go on record as being in favor of the passage of H.R. 6891. I am here today representing the Long Beach area in general and specifically the Snowfliers Ski Club of Douglas Aircraft. This is a recently organized club, with an active participation of over 75 persons and is still growing. One point I wish to make clear is that 65 percent of these people are beginning skiers. Passage of this bill is of great importance to the family winter recreation program and is of major importance to the beginning skier for the following reasons:

1. The distance factor in finding good snow conditions in California; and

2. The cost of reaching such areas for a recreational purpose. New ski clubs such as ours are forming all over southern California and with this influx of new skiers, the opening of new areas becomes a necessity. Weekend skiing in our present local areas can hardly be described as a pleasure because of over

crowded conditions. At present when local areas have snow, it is necessary to wait in a lift line from 30 to 45 minutes, so that one can ski for 10 or 15 minutes and then wait again.

Working in the aerospace industry, as most of our members do, we are faced with yet another problem which makes traveling out of the immediate area impractical-this being the 6-day workweek that our company and many other similar companies are involved in. I would like to mention also that I am a native Californian having lived most of my life in the Long Beach area. I actively participate in the scouting program and have made trips to San Gorgonio for camping and hiking as well as skiing. San Gorgonio can be skied at present but conditions make it totally impractical for the normal recreation enthusiast. The opening of a small portion of San Gorgonio as called out in this bill would open to the many people that which is now accessible to only a few.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much.

Our next speaker will be Herbert F. Whitman.

STATEMENT OF HERBERT F. WHITMAN, SKIER

Mr. WHITMAN. My name is Herbert F. Whitman of Long Beach. To find reliable snow cover for skiing, most people must take, at a minimum, a 7-hour trip. To save wear and tear on themselves, they take one of the numerous charter bus services. As a nightworker, either swing or graveyard, I cannot avail myself of these services and, therefore, must curtail my enjoyment of winter sports. If an area, such as San Gorgonio, were made available in southern California for family recreational use with reliable snow cover, then many people in my circumstances could fully enjoy winter sports on a daily basis, without the long and tiring drive.

I am an electronic engineer in the aerospace industry. Two and a half of the last five and a half years have been worked on shifts other than the first shift (approximately 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.) Skiing for the past 4 years.

Reliable snow cover is 7 hours' driving time from Los Angeles County. This means a tiring trip prior to skiing and a dangerous trip after skiing, if a person drives his own car, plus the expense of the travel and lodging required. To be spared the tedium of the trip, most people can take one of the numerous charter buses available. Herein lies my problem, which I am sure is shared by others. These buses are scheduled to leave at approximately 6 p.m. on Fridays and return early Monday morning. Reservations must be made in advance. As a salaried worker, I cannot depend on a full 2-day weekend when I am working on the first shift, and, therefore, cannot usually make advance reservations. When I am working at times other than the first shift, the buses leave or return at a time when I am at work. So I am resigned to the use of my car and, therefore, do not make the trip as freely as I would like.

For those who work at times other than the first shift, further restrictions on weekend skiing become apparent when distance and time are of prime consideration. When working the swing shift (approximately 4 p.m. to midnight), if you leave after work on Friday

night you can arrive at the ski area early in the morning, but you have been awake for 20 hours and the last 7 were a strain with driving. So, after some needed rest, you may ski an hour or two on Saturday and feel irritable in the evening. However, there is still a full day of skiing Sunday. When working the graveyard shift (approximately midnight to 7 a.m.), if you leave after work Friday morning you arrive at the ski area in the evening with plenty of time to rest to enjoy skiing Saturday, but not Sunday; Sunday night you have to be back at work and to give your employer his due, you cannot ski all day, drive back to the city, and be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at work.

Therefore, distance to ski areas with reliable snow cover cuts weekends to 1-day enjoyment for those working other than first shift. Since becoming an engineer, 45 percent of my working time has been other than first shift; consequently I cannot fully enjoy skiing as much as I would like. If San Gorgonio is made available for family recreational use, I, and others like myself, could enjoy full weekend or daily use of the snow without the cost or fear of long driving trips. Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

The next speaker will be Mr. Miller R. Collins.

STATEMENT OF MILLER R. COLLINS, SKIER

Mr. COLLINS. I am Miller R. Collins, probably the only nonnative. As a skier and nature lover, I have several observations to make on the question of skiing in the San Gorgonio Wild Area. The first is that I feel that the conservation people who oppose this venture and the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs should look at several of the outstanding Federal- and State-controlled ski areas in the United States-particularly the areas of Pinkam Notch, N.H., Franconia Notch, N.H., Stowe, Vt., Estes Park, Colo., and Mount Mammouth, Calif. These areas are either State or Federal controlled and present excellent appearances of wild areas during all seasons. I have visited most of these areas while I was an the ski-racing circuit in 1956. These areas were developed so that the general public could commune with nature either by skiing, hiking, camping, or just riding the lift to the summit for a look at nature in all her glory-a pleasure that previously would have been denied because of the physical stress climbing a mountain would impose on most people past the age of 20. In southern California there are approximately 10 million people, and we have all kinds of estimates on the number of skiers who live here. The Far Western Ski Club says that there are about 300,000 skiers, while the Sierra Club feel that there are about 75,000 skiers. Presumably, somewhere between these two estimates is the correct number. Last year the Sierra Club said that 15,000 people visited the wild area. If we divide that figure into the 350,000 acres in this particular wild area, we arrive at a figure of 23.33 acres per person who visited the area. And if we further consider that most of these people were Boy Scouts and young men 10 to 20 years of age, and that they camped in the area of the Dry Lake which is about 2 miles off the road and hiked perhaps another 2 miles in diameter, then the area which the skiers want to use is visited, I would guess, at the very most, by 100 people per year other than skiers. It would be interesting to me and perhaps

to the committee to know how many of the people who oppose skiing in the wild area have, in fact, ever hiked into this area.

Last August I hiked to the summit of Delano Mountain-12,173 feet the highest peak in south Utah. Upon reaching the summit, I found a Sierra Club mailbox for signing in. There were no more than 10 names on this list; including 2 deer hunters who signed in twice, 2 sheepherders, 2 Boy Scouts, and a father and son. But if 300,000 people wanted to ski there, all the alleged nature lovers would have voiced opposition to their wild area—which is not being taken advantage of in the first place.

At present skiing in the five areas of southern California (when there is snow) is unbelievable. The lifts-which have a capacity of 1,000 to 1,500 an hour-give the average skier 5 runs if he is lucky. It is not necessary to project the size of this problem in 5 years, because today unless you are willing to drive 400 miles, there is no skiing available except at San Gorgonio.

It appears to me that 15,000 people are regulating between 75,000 to 300,000 people. As the present plans call for an area which would be out of the beaten path of most hikers, I cannot see what the problem

is.

It seems that opening up this area with proper regulation would, in the next 5 years, allow 10 million people the use of what was theirs anyway, but would now be accessible to those who take their portion of nature differently. In addition San Gorgonio would combine outstanding snow conditions with warm sunshine. There would not even be the necessity of cutting a tree to improve its already perfect degree of slope into one of the world's great ski areas. In the United States there are only two areas near centers of population, and of these, only one in Alta, Utah, is worth much as a future Olympic training ground. Since most ski areas are isolated, the San Gorgonio area, because of its proximity to Los Angeles, would in the near future allow the poor man to play at what is mostly now a rich man's sport. In 10 years it could give the United States 50 percent of its Olympic team, and be an international showplace. Further, it would allow 500,000 people each season to ski on an area which previously served only about a hundred people a year.

Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Are those the only members of this panel who are to speak at this time?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; that completes this panel.

Mr. BARING. All right. Questions from the subcommittee.

Mr. HOSMER. I would like to acknowledge the presence of my constituents, Mr. Donnelly and Mr. Reynolds and the other witnesses here from my area, and I would give them an opportunity to suggest an answer if they have it at the present time to a question that is of

concern to me.

That is, how to open this for sking and, at the same time, preserve the wilderness characteristics of the area that the other people desire.

If any one of you have any suggestions along that line, or if you want to open up some different angle or other line of inquiry on it, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Mr. DONNELLY. Being an outdoorsman myself, which includes not only skiing but outdoor camping and hiking, which I do rather exten