Mr. CARPENTER. $535,000 last year.

Mr. RICH. What is your total expense? Is that $535,000 revenue to the Federal Government?

Mr. CARPENTER. No, sir. That is what we took in for fees las: year.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what the stockmen paid?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is what the stockmen paid for the use of the public domain.

Mr. RICH. How much of that comes to the Federal Government? Mr. CARPENTER. All of it.

Mr. RICH. Oh, no.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir; it all comes to the Federal Government, but some of it goes back

Mr. RICH. Back to the States and counties?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir; the Federal Government returns 50 percent of it to the States and counties.

Mr. RICH. In other words, the Federal Government receives for its own purposes 50 percent?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes; and then 25 percent is appropriated by the Federal Government for the improvement of the range.

Mr. RICH. Twenty-five percent goes for improvement of the range? Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. RICH. And then 50 percent of it goes back to the States and counties?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. RICH. Then the Federal Government has 25 percent in its Treasury?

Mr. CARPENTER. The Federal Government has kept 25 percent. Mr. RICH. How much did it cost the Federal Government in your Division this year?

Mr. CARPENTER. $400,000 in this year past.

Mr. LEAVY. With the expansion of your activities as proposed by the increase of $100,000 in this appropriation item, the increase of 29 people in your personnel to catch up with these numerous applications so that you could utilize them, do you anticipate for the fiscal year 1939 any substantial increase likewise in the receipts?

Mr. CARPENTER. No, sir. I do not. There will be some increase. Mr. LEAVY. You spoke about expecting to receive a million dollars.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. Wouldn't that be a substantial increase there?

Mr. CARPENTER. Perhaps I should explain in this way: The law has a provision that in time of bad drought, as we had, for instance. in the whole State of Montana, we can rebate the fees. We did rebate them this last year. For that reason our collections were small as compared to what they normally should be. Normally they will run close to a million dollars a year.

Mr. O'NEAL. What do you mean by "rebated"?

Mr. CARPENTER. The Taylor Grazing Act states that in time of drought or epidemic the Secretary can rebate.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. You mean by that, a refund?
Mr. CARPENTER. A refund.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Of the fees that they pay?
Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. To the particular State or the owner?
Mr. CARPENTER. To the owner.

DISTINCTION BETWEEN AND SEPARATION OF JURISDICTION OVER PUBLIC DOMAIN AND NATIONAL PARKS

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is the difference between a public domain and a national park? Are they adjacent to each other? Or the national forests? Are they all combined closely together or are they separate and distinct?

Mr. CARPENTER. They are separate and distinct, but close together. I can show you on a map here.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is like a Chinese puzzle. You go through the country out West and one part comes under the Department of Agriculture and another under the Forest Service and another is public domain.

Mr. CARPENTER. Here is an actual district. By colors, I can tell you what that land is. This is the national forest that is referred to, in this dark green. Also in the southern part. All of the white land and all of the red land is privately owned. All of the other land in light green is Government owned.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is that called? Is that national forest? Mr. CARPENTER. No, sir. This is summer grazing land, public domain. These are three mountains here. We colored it a light green to show the spring and summer and fall grazing.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Where is this?

Mr. CARPENTER. This is in Congressman Taylor's district, in the northwest corner of the State of Colorado. This is Wyoming, and this is Utah here.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. This yellow is the national domain?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir. And the light green.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is the national forest?

Mr. CARPENTER. This dark green over here.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. The public domain and the national forest?
Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Which is the national park?

Mr. CARPENTER. There is no national park here, but they are pro posing to put a national monument down here. They will probably put one there.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. The Rocky Mountain Park is a national park, isn't it?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes. But that isn't here.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Going from Cedar City up to Bryce Canyon we went through national forest and public domain and national park. Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. And how they separate them and why they are under three different administrations or jurisdictions I cannot understand.

Mr. CARPENTER. That will show you the relative location of all the forests and parks and public domains. The public domain is in brown and the forests are in green there.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say that the forest reserve, gentlemen, is substantially the same size as the public domain outside of the forest reserve. There is not a great deal of difference. The administration

of the forest reserve costs about 17 times as much as it does to administer the public domain outside.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Wouldn't it be a great thing if it all could be placed under one head?

The CHAIRMAN. Sure, but we cannot do that in this committee. We have talked about it for years.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. This is where we should bring up the benefits to be derived from it.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. RICH. May I answer your question, Mr. Fitzpatrick? I think that Mr. Taylor is one of the most influential Members of Congress; and, if he uses his influence to put the two together, we will have them put together just as sure as the sun shines.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't have any influence like that.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. You are one of the best-informed men along this line who has ever come up here. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

I have been at it all my life.

I was

born on a cattle range, and I have lived out there in that country all my life.

Mr. RICH. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RICH. Mr. Carpenter, are you increasing your flocks, both of cattle and of sheep? What has been the condition in the last 3 years in reference to the flocks being pastured on the public domain? Are they increasing or decreasing?

Mr. CARPENTER. Decreasing.

Mr. RICH. How much?

Mr. CARPENTER. In numbers around 20 percent.

Mr. RICH. For what reason?

Mr. CARPENTER. Because they were excessively grazed before that time.

Mr. RICH. Who is causing them to be decreased? What department?

Mr. CARPENTER. The Division of Grazing.

Mr. RICH. The Interior Department?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICH. Does the Agriculture Department have anything to do with the reduction of cattle being grazed on the public domain? Mr. CARPENTER. Not directly anything. No. sir.

Mr. RICH. Are the farmers being paid anything for decreasing their flocks?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes. Under the A. A. A. program they are.
Mr. RICH. To what extent?

Mr. CARPENTER. I don't know their regulations; but there is set up under the A. A. A. program of the Department of Agriculture a certain payment to be made to a stockman for operating on what they call the prescribed good practices; and if he decreases the amount of pasturing that he puts on his private lands, not public land, he is paid a bonus.

Mr. RICH. How much is that?

Mr. CARPENTER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. RICH. Can you get those figures for us?

The CHAIRMAN. That doesn't come under his jurisdiction.

Mr. CARPENTER. I have nothing to do with that.

Mr. RICH. The reason I was asking that was because down in Florida a representative made a statement that he is going to try to educate the people of this country to eat more meat; that that was the thing to be talked about. Now, as long as we are making a scarcity of cattle and increasing the price, how are the people of this country going to eat more meat?

Mr. CARPENTER. Congressman, of course, we think that we are going to raise more beef and mutton with those fewer numbers, because when they go off, they are very fat. We think we will actually have more meat with fewer numbers.

Mr. RICH. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CARPENTER. They will weigh more.

Mr. RICH. But in the long run you will have less, won't you?

The CHAIRMAN. No. If they go on summer range and don't have anything to eat, they will go off in the fall skinny and poor. Instead of that, they go off now fat and in good marketable condition.

Mr. LEAVY. In order that this record might not convey the wrong impression, let me ask you this: The A. A. A. does not pay a farmer for reducing his herd as such, but pays him for the reduction that he makes in the pasturage for soil-conservation purposes?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is true.

Mr. RICH. That is a fine way to put it, from the standpoint of an educator and a good judge to fool the people; but the fact of the matter is that where you reduce the number of cattle, we are now getting less cattle, and that is what is increasing the price of our meat in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. Less cattle and more and better beef.

Mr. RICH. That is all right. Now, let me ask you this question. From your experience do you think that it is a wise thing for the Agriculture Department to graze and look after the cattle on the forest reserves in the summertime and then have the Interior Department take them in the wintertime? Isn't it more expensive for the Federal Government to have those dual controls of grazing than it would be if it were under one Department?

Mr. CARPENTER. Well, frankly, I don't know. I know it costs us about half a cent an acre to administer this land.

Mr. RICH. That is not the question I asked you. I am interested in knowing whether in your judgment as a grazer, knowing what you do about grazing, wouldn't it be cheaper to have one department than it would be to have two?

Mr. CARPENTER. I don't know whether it would be cheaper, but it would be better.

Mr. RICH. You have men that you use for this grazing in the wintertime. Wouldn't those men be available for the same purposes in the summertime?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Mr. Chairman, may I ask two questions which I think will bring out something worth while?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I hope it will.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. What is the cost of administering the Grazing Division per acre under your administration?

Mr. CARPENTER. A little less than half a cent an acre.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. In Senate Document 199, Seventy-fourth Congress, second session, which was issued by the Department of Agriculture,

they gave on page 465 an estimate of the cost of administering that land as $1.51 an acre. Do you recall that amount?

Mr. CARPENTER. I think they made an estimate for an independent agency of $2,250,000 per year.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Yes. $1.51 an acre.

Mr. CARPENTER. I think it would run around 3 or 4 cents an acre. Mr. LEAVY. Mr. Carpenter, would there be any difference in the number of head of sheep or cattle or other livestock that could be supported on all of these acres that are involved?

Mr. CARPENTER. No, sir. The carrying capacity is a fixed fact. Mr. LEAVY. Some of the forests are located in a much better region

than others?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. And they produce grass much more extensively?
Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. So that a single acre will come more nearly supporting an animal than an acre out in the desert?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. Could there be a greater number of cattle or sheep grazed perhaps upon some of those forest districts upon a given area in a forest as against a like area under the Taylor Grazing Act? Do I make myself clear?

Mr. CARPENTER. I think what you mean is, Is the carrying capacity higher in the forest than on the desert?

Mr. LEAVY. Yes.

Mr. CARENTER. Carries more per acre?
Mr. LEAVY. Yes.

Mr. CARPENTER. For summer use, yes.

Mr. LEAVY. So that that would become another factor that you would have to take into consideration.

Mr. O'NEIL. Are there other factors that enter into the comparison between the two services?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir. There are.

Mr. O'NEIL. That might affect those figures and all the factors that apply.

Mr. CARPENTER. Those figures were given for this particular land. But ordinarily in grazing on the forest there are other factors, such as timber, that would make an increased cost.

METHOD ADMINISTERING GRAZING ON PUBLIC LANDS

Mr. RICH. Mr. Chairman, I have a letter here from some people in the West who claim that the Taylor Grazing Act is putting the little fellow off of the public domain. I don't want to put anything in the record that is going to bungle it up, but I would like to know if these people here are going to see this letter and read it. If you will give me your guarantee that they will read it, then I will not put it in the record; but if you don't, I would like to have that permission.

Mr. LEAVY. I would like to ask in connection with that: Does the local citizen have any preference rights in grazing over the person who comes from a distance?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir. The method of administration is this, Mr. Leavy:

Every man who has a right to use the district has a right to cast one vote for what we call the advisory board regardless of the size of his