} CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. tutional Convention, Lansing: SIR-I have the honor to transmit herewith, . in pursuance of a resolution of the Conven- ed by Seymour Perry, John R. McFar-referred. My own opinion seriously is lan, E. A. Sawyer, and 20 others, voters that tobacco is an intoxicating weed. of Grand Blanc, for a provision in the And the question being a matter of inConstitution prohibiting the smoking toxication and morals, I think if the of tobacco on the public streets of petition is referred at all, it should be towns, villages and cities. I move that referred to the committee on intoxicait be referred to the committee on mis- ting liquors. Hence, I made the mocellaneous provisions. tion to refer it to that committee. But really I do not think there is any courtesy due to the petitioners, more than Sergeant-at-Arms Const'l Convention. to respectfully receive their petition Mr. T. G. SMITH. I move that 500 and lay it upon the table. I think that copies of the list accompanying the is the rule in legislative bodies gener- communication just read, be printed on ally. Because à petition is presented a separate sheet of paper, for the use here, it does not follow that it is enti- of this Convention. tled to a reference. Mr. LOVELL. I would suggest that the petition better be referred to the committee on intoxicating liquors. Mr. D. GOODWIN. There is nothing in the petition about intoxicating liquors. The question was taken upon referring the petition to the committee 'on miscellaneous provisions; and upon à division, ayes 18, noes 33, it was not agreed to. Mr. LOVELL. I move that the petition be referred to the committee on intoxicating liquors. Mr. HOWARD. I move to amend the motion, so that it be referred to the committee on the judicial depart ment. Mr. LOVELL. I would ask my Mr. BILLS. Í hope if this petition is referred to any committee it will be colleague (Mr. T. G.. SMITH) to modify referred to a special committee, as pro-lished in the journal. He can move his motion so that this list can be pubposed by this resolution. It is said by the printing of extra copies in addition the gentleman from Genesee, (Mr. to that. LOVELL,) that tobacco produces intoxiMr. T. G. SMITH. I do not see any cation, and that therefore it should be referred to the committee on intoxicat-object in having the list made a part of ing liquors. The committee on intoxi- our journal. cating liquors have charge of the sub- Mr. NORRIS. I would inquire what Mr. LEACH. I move that the peti- ject indicated by their title, " intoxicat- is the necessity of having printed 500 peti-ject tion be laid upon the table. ing liquors;" not intoxicating solids. copies of this list? I think that all The motion to lay on the table was [Laughter.] Therefore, it is suitable that is necessary is to have it printed agreed to. that this petition be referred to a com- in the journal. I think extra copies At a subsequent period, mittee on intoxicating solids, and not are entirely unnecessary. Mr. FERRIS said: I offer the follow- to the committee on intoxicating ing resolution: Resolved, That the petition respecting smoking tobacco be taken from the table and referred to a select committee of three. liquors. Mr. HOWARD. I ask for the yeas and nays on this resolution. Mr. MUSSEY. This list will appear in the Manual of the Convention, and before that is published, each member. will have an opportunity to see the proof, and ascertain whether it is correct in regard to himself. The yeas and nays were not ordered. resolution be laid upon the table. I Mr. LOVELL. I move that the really do not think our constituents amend the motion of the gentleman Mr. D. GOODWIN. I move to will care to have this petition referred from Genesee, (Mr. T. G. SMITH,) by to a special committee. striking out 500," and inserting The PRESIDENT. The resolution 200" as the number of copies to beis to take the petition from the table. Mr. LOVELL. I withdraw my mo tion. olution of Mr. FERRIS. I offer this resolution, because I believe that the people, or any portion of them, have the right to petition us in regard to whatever matter they please; and I think it is our duty to treat those petitions with the utmost respect, whether we approve or not of the object sought to be obtained. Therefore, I hope this petition will be taken from the table and referred to a select committee of three members. Mr. LEACH. It is proper I should ed with some of the signers of this Mr. McCONNELL. I am acquaintsay that I did not move to lay the pe- petition. I know them to be some of tition upon the table, out of any disre- the most respectable people in the spect for the petitioners. I made that county of Genesee. I do not think it motion simply because I thought I is treating them with proper respect to foresaw a long discussion upon it, a lay their petition upon the table. I, number of motions to refer it to vari- therefore, am in favor of taking it from ous committees, etc. I am perfectly the table, and referring it to some comwilling it should be referred to a committee. mittee. But I do not see the necessity The resolution of Mr. FERRIS was of occupying a long time in discussing then adopted. the matter. The PRESIDENT appointed as the DANIELLS. printed. Mr. T. G. SMITH. I accept the amendment. Mr. HOLT. Will it be printed in the journal also? The PRESIDENT. The Chair un derstands the motion to be not to print it in the journal, but to print 200 copies for the use of the Convention. Mr. HOLT. I move to amend the motion so that the list will also be printed in the journal. The amendment was not agreed to. The motion to print 200 copies was not agreed to. The PRESIDENT. The Chair understands the direction of the Convention to be not to print it in the journal, LIST OF MEMBERS AND OFFICERS OF THE and not to print any extra copies. Mr. TURNER. Will the list be now printed in the journal without any furMr. LOVELL. I suppose a petition select committee, ordered by the reso-ther action by the Convention? is treated with all proper respect if it lution, Messrs. FERRIS, LOVELL and is received and laid upon the table. As to the signers of this petition, they are constituents of my colleague, (Mr. HOWARD,) and myself, and are most honorable and respectable persons. The only question that has arisen in The PRESIDENT laid before the regard to this petition is in relation to Convention the following communicathe committee to which it should be tion from the Sergeant-at-Arms: CONVENTION, THEIR PROFESSIONS, AGES, ETC. Mr. TURNER. If it be in order, I move that the list be printed in the journal. The motion was agreed to. ENTERTAINMENT OF THE CONVENTION BY LADIES OF LANSING. Mr. P. D. WARNER. I offer the following resolution: Rosolved, That the use of Representative Hall be tendered to the ladies of Lansing for this evening, to be used in connection with the Senate Chamber, for a social entertainment in behalf of the members of the Conwention. I would say that it is not the intention of the ladies to occupy this Hall for any purpose except as a reception room for the purpose of social intercourse. The refreshments will be served in the Senate Chamber. I hope there will be no objection to the resolu tion. The resolution was adopted. SOLDIERS' MONUMENT, DETROIT. Mr. CONGER offered the following resolution, which was unanimously adopted: Resolved, That this Convention accept the rangements of the Michigan Soldiers' Monument Association, to this Convention, to be present at the ceremony of laying the corner stone of the Soldiers' Monument in the city of Detroit, on the fourth day of July next; and that the President of the Convention communicate to the committee of arrangements, the decision of the Convention and the thanks of courteous invitation of the committee of ar its members for this courteous invitation. COUNTIES. Mr. MUSSEY. I move that the Con tion by striking out the words "and Mr. SUTHERLAND. I move to If the amendment proposed by the sion that these boards will be hereafter actuated by any improper motives in the allowance or disallowance of claims. My vote will be governed in this case by the same motives that would lead me to favor any law which would provide for a review of the judgments of justices of the peace, or the judgments of the circuit courts, and I would favor it for the same reasons. But there are additional reasons for allowing a review of the decisions of boards of supervisors upon claims brought before them; reasons that do not exist in respect to the decisions of the courts. Boards of supervisors are not so organized that they can proceed I listened yesterday with much in- in the investigation of claims by the terest to the discussion of this question. examination of witnesses, and with the The same subject was before the Con- assistance of counsel, and a court to vention of 1850. At that time there instruct them as to the law. They do was a very warm and spirited debate not assume to decide judicially in all upon this subject. In the opinion of cases. There are frequently questions many members there had been, before that mingle in their deliberations and that time, much difficulty and embar-largely control their conclusions; and rassment experienced in consequence in allowing such considerations to govof appeals, or resorts to the courts, to ern them they are not actuated by imdetermine the amount of liabilities proper motives, but they proceed as against counties. And a provision was fairly in their estimate as though they adopted in the present Constitution, were governed by judicial considerasubstantially like the provision in this tions. They suppose themselves to section as reported from the committee be promoting the interests of the on counties. We have now had county; they suppose themselves to vention now resolve itself into commit-seventeen years experience under that have in view only the public interest. tee of the whole on the general order. provision. I think it is the observation As they are not limited in their mode The motion was agreed to. of the people generally, that boards of of proceeding, as they have no guide The Convention accordingly resolved supervisors are usually constituted by but their sense of right and justice, it itself into committee of the whole, the election of the best men in the is to be expected that they will now (Mr. LEACH in the chair,) and resumed townships, candid and fair men. I and then come to an unfair and unjust the consideration of general order should not be disposed to favor any No. 8, being the article entitled "Coun- amendment which would require the I call the attention of this committee Legislature to provide for an appeal in of the whole to the subjects upon which every case. I should be opposed to they are allowed to act by this section allowing appeals in respect to small of the Constitution. I see by reference sums. But there are other demands to the "Compiled Laws," a large variety than those of a trifling character, which of subjects which may give rise to are frequently brought before boards claims against the counties. They are of supervisors. Unless those boards authorized to purchase real estate for are more competent to decide upon the sites of county buildings, for a claims than our courts, however fair place for the accommodation of the they may be, however candid, although county poor. They have authority to they may be men of great judicial tal- fix their own compensation as the mement, errors will be committed. There bers of the board. They have authorought to be a review of their decisions, ity to provide compensation for every so as to provide a safeguard against variety of service rendered to the these errors. county; and to determine the salary of Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not favor every kind of officer, of superintendthe amendment under any apprehen- ents of the poor, of drainage commis ties." POWERS AND DECISIONS OF BOARDS OF The CHAIRMAN. When the committee rose yesterday, it had under consideration section eleven of this article, as follows: "The board of supervisors, or in the county of Wayne the board of county auditors, shall, except as otherwise provided, have the power to prescribe and fix the compensation for all services rendered for, and adjust all claims against their respective counties, and the sums so fixed or defined shall be subject to no appeal. They shall receive for their own services such compensation as shall be provided by law." The gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. D. GOODWIN,) moved to amend this sec decision. : In these difficult cases the sioners; and to determine the amount have the right to fix the amount of upon. to be paid to witnesses and officers in compensation to be paid for services to claimant is more liberally treated than all criminal cases. According to this the county, then the power will be he deserves, and the county is the section as reported from the commit- taken away from the Legislature; for sufferer. tee, and as it stands in the present Constitution, it may be inferred that the Legislature would have no right to determine the rate of compensation; the whole subject is left to the board of -supervisors. although the Legislature have assumed boards. My experience with reference to this subject, leads me to conclude that the provision reported by the committee, operates more severely upon the county than it does upon the claimants. I think there ought to be a review, more Take, for instance, this single item particularly to protect the county, than *of fixing their compensation. They are to protect the claimants. But I hold to be judges in their own case as re- It is within the observation of that that such a review ought to be progards that compensation. The people portion of this Convention, who have vided for both. I can see no occasion of the State, perhaps, so far, have had had any acquaintance with the pro- for any sensitiveness on the part of the *no occasion to complain that they have ceedings of courts, that whenever a de- persons present, who may have acted abused the power vested in them in re-fendant in a criminal case is unable to in the capacity of supervisors. A man Nation to fixing their own compensation. procure counsel, or has not the means who has decided upon the rights of But whoever has witnessed their pro- to procure the attendance of his wit- another party approaches that subject, ceedings in various counties must have nesses, an order of the court is made or should do so, with some degree of discovered that their action in this re-appointing some member of the bar delicacy. If he is a candid man, he spect has not been uniform. In some to defend him, and giving him compul- will distrust his own judgment, and it counties they have received the fees sory process for his witnesses, at the will be a source of some satisfaction fixed by the statute; in other counties expense of the county. The compen- to him if he can reflect that, in case he they have presumed to fix their com-sation of those witnesses, and the commits an error, there is another pensation for themselves. In some amount to be allowed to the attorney, tribunal that may correct it. I should counties they take one dollar and a are fixed by law. But if this section have expected that those members of half a day, the amount mentioned in is retained as it now stands, and this this Convention who have acted as suthe "compiled laws;" in other counties liberal construction is put upon it pervisors, who have been members of they have assumed to fix their com- which authorizes supervisors to fix boards, and acted upon claims, would pensation, and have doubled that their own compensation, notwithstand- have been among the first to favor an amount. It is certainly desirable that ing the provision of the law, then they amendment of this section, providing there should be uniformity in this mat- can allow a large sum to the counsel, for a review of the actions of those ter; that the supervisors in one county or they can deny him anything more should not receive more compensation than a mere nominal compensation; than those in another county. And and they can also determine the there is great propriety in allowing the amount to be paid as fees in all these Legislature to fix their compensation, cases. instead of referring the matter to a I might mention a multitude of other board of supervisors. There is no more cases in which services are rendered to propriety in allowing supervisors to fix the county; not directly, perhaps, but their own compensation, than there cases in which a county is made would be in allowing the judges of the chargeable for certain services, and the Mr. LUCE. This section has alSupreme Court to fix theirs. They are rate of payment is fixed by law. In ready been discussed at sufficient interested in the question, and consid-my judgment, it is not proper to give length, and I am anxious that we shall ering the great number of boards of so much power to the boards of super-come to a vote. I would not have arissupervisors, and the multitude of their visors as to make them independent of en now to say a word, but for the sinmembers, the question of expense is one the Legislature when acting upon these gular speech of the gentleman from Sagof some consequence. If they have the subjects. There is another thing that inaw, (Mr. SUTHERLAND.) The strongest right to fix their own compensation, I will mention; when a sheriff serves objection that he has urged, and urged and to set aside or disregard any law a warrant for the apprehension of a with the greatest tenacity, does not exupon that subject, then have they not man charged with burglary or larceny, ist against this section. I almost doubt, the right, wherever a county is charged and he is called upon to make search with all deference to the gentleman, with any service rendered-whether for the stolen property, there is no rate that he has ever read this section at directly for the benefit of the county or of compensation allowed by law for his all. It seems to me that he made a not-have not boards of supervisors extra services. The boards of super-pretty strong speech against some prothe right, and the exclusive power, to visers are authorized to allow such sum vision in the Constitution of 1850. For fix the amount of compensation? It is as in their judgment shall be proper instance, he dwelt with force and abilnot material, in this connection, that in any given case. Very large bills are ity upon the objections that supervisors they have not heretofore assumed to frequently made out by sheriffs for can fix their own compensation. Now exercise that power. If the section al- these extra services. There is no means if this section does not prohibit them lows them to do so, will they not here- of explaining the bill, or of ascertain- from doing anything of the kind in the after, when looking for the limits of ing whether the estimate of the sheriff future, then the language employed their power, be likely to exercise all the and the compensation he claims is cor- here does not mean what I intend it to power that is granted to them, when-rect or not, except such information as mean. The last clause in the section ever a case arises which calls that he himself may furnish. This matter under consideration provides that "they power into exercise? cannot properly be settled without a (the supervisors,) shall receive for their The statute fixes the amount of fees thorough investigation, an investigation own services such compensation as that petit and grand jurors shall re- which in many cases it is impossible shall be provided by law." This takes ceive. Now, if boards of supervisors for the boards of supervisors to enter it out of their hands; it gives them no I trust the amendment of the gentleman from Wayne will prevail; but lest that amendment alone should not have the desired effect of authorizing the Legislature to provide for a review, I have offered my amendment, that there may be no question upon that subject. J power to fix their own compensation; at least I so supposed when I drew the section, and I think so now. not get equal and exact justice? And counties in these cases are unfounded. I would also inquire if they are always It sometimes so happens that a claim: satisfied with the decisions of courts of is so covered up, or almost covered up, The gentleman also raises a very se- the highest resort? I believe this sec- with other matters that are not right rious objection to the provision which tion as it stands will mete out more and proper, that it should be closely. gives to the board of, supervisors ex-justice, and give greater satisfaction, examined before it is allowed. I have clusive powers; and powers above and than it would if amended in the way known cases where it has been proved beyond the control of the Legislature. the gentleman proposes, or any other to the satisfaction of boards of superThat exclusive power is not given to way which may be suggested. The visors that a claim of one hundred them under this section, as reported. amendment of the gentleman from Sag- dollars against the county, which had It is intended by the section that they inaw does not remove my objection to been presented, would be fully and shall have the power to prescribe and the amendment of the gentleman from justly satisfied with eight or ten dolfix compensation for services rendered, Wayne, (Mr. D. GOODWIN.) lars. It is in cases of this kind, where etc., except when fixed by law. When supervisors feel that parties claim more that compensation is fixed by law, then than they are entitled to for the serthey can allow only such compensation. vices they have rendered, that the dif It was intended to take away from the ficulty alluded to arises. They someboard of supervisors that exclusive times feel like throwing out the whole power to which he objects. account. But still, upon a review of the matter by the next board, upon a fair account brought in for services rendered, in nine cases out of ten proper allowance is made. It seems to me, as I said before, that the strongest objections which the gentleman urged against this section do not exist. He has made his strongest effort upon objections which are not well founded. Mr. ELLIOTT. As this subject has led to a somewhat wide range of discussion, I desire to offer a very few remarks in regard to it. There is one point in connection with it which, I think, has not yet been considered. There must be, in all cases, a decision somewhere from which there is no appeal. Now, considering the relative position that the parties occupy in all cases of claims against the county, I would inquire whether that position will be altered, if provision is made for allowing these cases to be brought before a court? I need not review the practical workings of this provision in the Constitution. It is not necessary for me to show, what is the fact, that it has been That is, will a jury composed of satisfactory to ninety-nine out of every twelve men, all of them from the same hundred people in this State. The county, be any more willing or presection now under consideration pro-pared to do justice to a claimant vides: against that county than a board of "The board of supervisors, or in the supervisors? I think not. If there pervisors. Sir, that cannot be correct, county of Wayne the board of county auditors, shall, except as otherwise provided, pensation for all services rendered for, and adjust all claims against their respective have the power to prescribe and fix the com counties." are any county interests involved the What little experience I have had upon boards of supervisors has convinced me that parties have no reason to complain of the action of boards of supervisors, when a fair showing has been presented with an account. There are but few claims upon which they may act. It is stated here, that witnesses and constables are paid according to the award of the board of sufor their compensation is fixed by law, and when their account is presented according to law, the boards of supervisors must allow it; they cannot dodge it. In many cases the court orders the clerk to draw an order upon the county treasurer, and they are paid in that way. There are few cases that come before the boards of supervisors, where parties have reason to feel aggrieved. I believe that most supervisors intend to deal equitably between themselves as representatives of the county and parties presenting claims against the county. I propose to offer an amendment, if It has been said that the board may no other gentleman offers it, to insert err. That is true; they undoubtedly after the words " except as otherwise have erred heretofore, and there is no provided," the words "by law," so as doubt that they will err hereafter. But to cover the idea which was intended the claims upon which they err are not by the committee in reporting this sec- generally claims presented by those tion. The gentleman has raised an- having a clear case against the county. other objection, which I think is purely I think that in all cases where the law fictitious. He says the boards of su- provides the compensation for certain pervisors sometimes allow too much. services, and where those services are Now, I venture the prediction that if shown to have been rendered, they are Sometimes a case is presented by a the portion of this section is stricken paid for to the full extent of the law. doctor. Now doctors have a sort of out to which he makes objection, there But the greatest objection to this system of charging so much for their will not be one appeal on behalf of the manner of presenting and allowing services in all cases. For instance, in State or county for the next twenty-five claims is this: In many cases constables viewing a dead body, a doctor will not years. The boards of supervisors them- from various motives are employed to make a record more than half an inch selves are not going to appeal, espec- act. Sometimes, perhaps, difficulties or an inch long; yet he will present a ially against their own decisions. I are got up in the county between indi- bill of fifty dollars, or seventy-five dolapprehend that the amendment pro- viduals, for the purpose of bringing a lars, for his services. The board of posed by the gentleman is simply claim against the county. Now, there supervisors, seeing that the services offered because it is supposed it may is no one in particular whose duty it is rendered did not require his attention sometimes subserve the interests of the to look after these matters. The super- more than half an hour, are perhaps public. But I venture to say that it visor of the township in which that inclined to say that he has done too will do no such thing. constable lives has some knowlege of little for the amount that he claims, the facts, and presents the claim to the and they do not allow him the full board and states the circumstances of amount. Then, of course, the doctor the claim; he states that the party will say that he has not been justly acted in such and such a manner. In dealt with. some cases no doubt these claims may I think, as I said before, that boards be just; but in other cases there is no of supervisors intend to do justice, and doubt that the claims brought against to allow compensation in full propor So far as the decisions of the boards of supervisors are concerned, it may be that in some cases they may not do exact justice to claimants. But I submit to the distinguished gentleman from Saginaw, if, in his own courts, it does not occur at times that parties do |