port. I do not have the reports for all the days corresponding to the dates of the San Gorgonio survey, but the following will give a representative sampling for purposes of comparison:

1 This report was after having received rain in the early morning hours of Thursday, Feb. 14; Mount Baldy the only snow rather than rain.

2 San Gorgonio on this date had somewhere between 24 and 48 inches of snow based on an interpolation from the snow survey reports of Mar. 10 and Apr. 21, 1963.

It should be understood that the reports presented above are given by the area operators themselves. Also, previous to the February 15 report, there was little or no skiing in southern California, and, as I personally remember, there were weeks in between February 15 and March 21 when the skiing was marginal or nonexistent. March 21 marked the last weekend that there was any local operation for skiing during the 1963 season. San Gorgonio could have been used well into the month of June.

That concludes my statement. Thank you.

Mr. BARING. All right, are there any questions at this time? We will just wait until the panel has completed their presentation and then we can ask questions.

You may proceed, Mr. Page.

STATEMENT OF JOHN R. PAGE, JR., NATIONAL SKI PATROLMAN NO. 2107

Mr. PAGE. Mr. Chairman, I am John R. Page, Jr., and my qualifications as an expert in winter safety and avalanche control are as follows: No. 1, registered national ski patrolman No. 2107, with active service since 1949. No. 2, registered avalanche instructor of the NSPS, qualified at USFS Avalanche School held at Squaw Valley in 1959 under M. Atwatter and R. Stillman. No. 3, member of Olympic ski patrol, 1960; qualified as avalanche control team member and mountain rescue team B. No. 4, mountaineering instructor USSA since 1953. No. 5, search and rescue leader, Mount Baldy ski patrol, since 1958. No. 6, voted outstanding ski patrolman of the Nation by NSPS during 1962-63 season. No. 7, have written overall safety plan for proposed Mineral King development for Mineral King Recreation Corp. No. 8, member snow survey teams in San Gorgonio, Mineral King, and Robinson Basin areas. No. 9, have been into San Gorgonio Wilderness Areas over 120 times in lifetime, 50 of these under winter conditions on skis, member of construction team that built existing first aid caches in area.

My primary considerations are as follows:

First, overall safety planning:

(a) Avalanche forecasting, education, and control measures. (b) Ski patrol, both professional and volunteer.

(c) Search and rescue teams, both summer and winter.

(d) Equipment and caches.

Second, snow surveys; and third, terrain analysis.

Any proposal to open this area must recognize the need for adequate members of an avalanche forecasting team, utilizing both USFS qualified snow rangers and ski patrol control members similar to those used at areas such as Mount Baldy, Alpine Meadows, Squaw Valley, and others. However the San Gorgonio area will pose a much lesser problem than the other areas named, due to the more compact terrain features. This would also cut down the need for artillery emplacements and so forth, such as used at Squaw Valley. Most of the avalanche hazard slopes of San Gorgonio area can be ski stabilized by a control team. Cornice formations can be controlled by preseason emplacement of exposive charges to eliminate cornice buildup during later season and subsequent hazard.

The natural terrain diversion features of the San Gorgonio can eliminate much natural hazard, if allowed to influence the placement of lift structures and the full utilization of these natural diversion barriers. The entire area can be easily posted with permanent closures to insure the wander skier from potential exposure to natural hazard. Education of the winter use sportsman can assist greatly in reducing hazard.

The main chutes leading into proposed intermediate ski areas on the north face of San Gorgonio are almost always wind scoured and

pose a minor problem to the skier on this well skied potential run

area.

A defined overall safety plan will give a better delineated program, it will cover all phases of active and passive protective measures anticipated, utilizing primarily the natural terrain diversion and protective barriers. Also, all phases of anticipated forecasting measures and educational methods will be outlined.

A completely detailed qualification outline for the personnel needed for such a program will be submitted in any proposal to open this area to skiers.

A roster of both professional and volunteer ski patrolmen would be necessary to handle the safety needs of the skiing public. It is anticipated that weekend crowds would bring a greater need for patrolmen, therefore the professional patrol would be augmented by a large well trained group of volunteers. These are readily available from the Southern California Region Ski Patrol. There are many well qualified ski patrolmen with mountaineering and avalanche training ready to start work in this area if opened.

The search and rescue teams would be filled from the trained reservoir of patrolmen-mountaineers from this region. At present time there are over 100 such patrolmen-search-and-rescue-team men qualified and ready for duty.

The equipment would be listed under two categories: (1) Ski transportation for transport of injured as defined in the U.S.F.S. safety plans (that is, toboggans, akias, and so forth). (2) Avalanche and search and rescue equipment as defined by the U.S.F.S. (that is, probes, head lanterns, shovels, emergency rations, crampons, ice axes, and so forth). The detailed listings of these would also be presented in any proposal submitted.

My testimony regarding snow surveys is only to verify the survey statistics given in Robert Hale's testimony as I was the leader of the survey teams that prepared the analysis and depths given during 1962-63 seasons.

My analysis of the terrain in the San Gorgonio has proven to me that this area can be a safe ski area, from the viewpoint of avalanche protection by a trained avalanche control team. I feel that this area has a safer potential than many of the areas already in existence throughout California. I feel that careful planning can eliminate any danger to structure or skier.

In summary, I wish to say that San Gorgonio can be a safe ski area.. That all installations can utilize the natural terrain features both from safety standpoints and retention of the natural beauty of the area. Even the parking lot facilities can utilize the natural open areas of Dry Lake without removing trees, and by strip parking even the natural appearance of this portion can be retained.

As for the access road from Barton Flats, this area is little used by summer or winter travelers. It would not be exposed to avalanche hazard, and my surveys of this area on skis during the winter have shown that road clearance would be at a minimum due to the wind action through this area.

The heavily used portion of San Gorgonio; namely, the Slughy Meadows Area, Dollar Lake, Poopout Hill, Christmas Tree Hill, East

Ridge of Mount Charlton, and so forth, would not be utilized in any planning for a proposed skiing area. In fact, touring enthusiasts during the winter could use this area as always without any loss of the wilderness atmosphere. The summer hiker would hardly ever penetrate the lift area unless he desired to visit it. The hiking terrain would not suffer from winter usage of the very small area desired for winter sports usage.

Thank you very much.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

We will next hear from Mr. Al Gonzales.

STATEMENT OF AL GONZALES, FORMER CORRECTIONAL OFFICER, YOUTH AUTHORITY, STATE OF CALIFORNIA

Mr. GONZALES. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Al Gonzales, active skier, conservationist, camper, and youthworker. I would like to testify to actually existent conditions at the "heart of the San Gorgonio area."

I have camped in the Slushy Meadows area for four successive seasons for 31⁄2 days each week during the months of June through September, from 1962 through 1965. I am well conversant with the existing controversy.

As director of camp programs for the Fred C. Nelles School for Boys, Whittier, Calif., I was able to observe firsthand some facets of this controversy you gentlemen should be apprised of.

First, although the Forest Service has through the years been the advocate of "multiple use," they are actively campaigning against the opening of this area to the skiers. This is common knowledge on the mountain and I have seen articles in the local newspapers quoting them as outspokenly against winter recreation on this superb

mountain.

Second, many organization camp people have been telling their young charges that a chair lift will be constructed right up the presently used Poopout Hill-Slushy Meadows corridor, and "brainwashing" these young ones against any proper development of San Gorgonio's upper ski slopes.

Third, the Forest Service states the number of visitors to be some 53,000 people. In my own experience, I have seen whole pages torn out of the attendance register and also the writing of bogus names to multiply the list. Perhaps these might balance themselves in the long run but, even more important, having been on the scene (Slushy Meadows over a 4-year period) I seriously doubt more than 10,000 individuals (not names) actually use the area during any one year.

Fourth, having accompanied Jack Page of the ski patrol during each of the previous winters (1961-64) I can attest to the long ski season and fine quality of snow above 9,000 feet. Actually our camping in Slushy Meadows-season wise is governed by the snow season. We have had to delay opening the past 2 years because of excessive snow and water runoff, while we also have to be mindful of possible early season snow falls during the month of September.

The area we actively use for camping will not be affected by the installation of chair lifts above 9,000 feet. These are two separate,

self-contained areas actually out of sight and sound of the campers using the "heart of the area.

Congressman Dyal's bill will give all the people an opportunity to enjoy this masterpiece of our "Creator's handiwork." We are no different to the Swiss and Austrians who find camping, hiking, and skiing all a part of the true conservationists' love of the out of doors.

Mr. HOSMER. Now, did you say that you got your figure of 53,000 people from the Forest Service?

Mr. GONZALES. Well, sir, I am only going by what I read, where the Forest Service said they had 53,000 people that were using the San Gorgonio area.

Now, as I stated, the area in question, they say, is Slushy Meadows, they said it is being used. This is true that it is used. People do go from Poopout Hill to Slushy Meadows. There is a very small percentage of the people who actually go up any further, up to San Gorgonio or who go up into Dry Lake.

There are a certain number of people who use the Dry Lake area. I believe the figure is something like 2,000 that actually went into that

area.

I know there have been bogus names used because, being a director up there and having been in that area for sometime, I have met quite a few campers and quite a few directors of camps and a lot of them have told me to tell my boys that when we went into Slushy Meadows to make sure that we signed in in the Forestry registration book 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 times apiece so that we could get this area

Mr. HOSMER. Who told you that?

Mr. GONZALES. Other area camp directors.

Mr. HOSMER. Can you name anybody specifically?
Mr. GONZALES. No; I cannot.

I can name the different camps.

Mr. HOSMER. Now, you are making accusations against the Forest Service, accusations of dereliction of duty and accusations against somebody else of falsification of records.

I think that we are entitled to know either specifically who is at fault there and who is trying to falsify the information which the U.S. Government collects officially; or, we are entitled to have these accusations erased from the record.

Mr. GONZALES. As far as giving you actual names, I cannot give you the actual names. I can give you the camp areas from where they

came.

Mr. HOSMER. This is the kind of information that is of very little or no value. Without any foundation, it is vague and ambiguous.

Personally, I think that is completely improper testimony. It is my personal opinion that it is not the kind of testimony that should come before this committee and I think you are making a mistake by continuing such testimony.

Mr. GONZALES. Well, I certainly will stop in the line. I have just said that the area is being used but not above Dry Lake itself.

Since I do not have the names of the people who told me these things, I will not state anything further on it.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Mr. Taft.