existent situation-not one to be "passed off" on the hopeful winter recreationist to be.

Those of us who have hiked the many varied trials in the great mass of national forest land that Congressman Saylor stressed is available to "the larger number of citizens," realize this land is every bit as wild as the 5 percent which carries the Federal label, "wilderness." We also realize this land is not being used by that enormous population because only a small percentage of people hike and camp in their pursuit of recreation. Only the alpine character-6 months of snow on a southern California mountain-distinguishes San Gorgonio as unique.

Let me close this testimony by relating two widely separate incidents, each of which serves to pinpoint the opposition. The first took place on the day of the San Bernardino Chamber of Commerce luncheon, February 21, 1964. The newspapers had announced an open debate between the so-called Defenders of San Gorgonio and the proponents of family winter recreation on San Gorgonio. Yet the program appearing at each table setting was labeled "Sierra Club versus San Gorgonio Ski Lifts." Take away the Sierra Club and there wouldn't be any defenders of San Gorgonio. Take away the ski lifts and you still have the hundreds of thousands who are demanding, and by daily increasing thousands in this tremendously growing metropolitan area, will continue to demand the opening of San Gorgonio to family winter recreation until it happens I should say until you Members of Congress recognize the necessity and act by passing Congressman Dyal's bill.

The second incident involved world famous mountain climber, Norman Dyhren furth, who was answering questions after the showing of his superb Mount Everest film. When asked his opinion concerning the possible opening of San Gorgonio, he stated emphatically: "It should be opened." When, several days later, we had lunch together and I asked his cooperation in passing his mature, seasoned, favorable judgment on to Secretary Freeman, he agreed. But then he had to decline when several of his Everest companions who are Sierra Club members pressured him into ineffective silence.

Gentlemen, the winter recreationist-man, wife, children; the family winter recreationist-is invariably in favor of preserving some portions of our country as wilderness. But the directorship of the Sierra Club fights any change in every established wilderness system, no matter how illogical. This philosophy of absolute inflexibility can only be corrected by your committee. I submit that not even the Sierra Club has been, or could be, 100 percent correct 100 percent of the time. I submit that here the skiers and the family winter recreationist are right and the Sierra Club is wrong.

San Gorgonio must be opened for limited entry to family winter

recreation.

I would submit exhibits A and B to my statement for the record or for the file, as appropriate.

Thank you very much.

(Exhibits A and B are in the files of the subcommittee.)

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

All right, the next speaker, Mr. Glass.

STATEMENT OF CLEM C. GLASS, REALTOR, W. ROSS CAMPBELL CO., LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

Mr. GLASS. My name is Clem C. Glass, residing at 4747 Alta Canyada Road, La Canada, Calif.

I was born in the city of Los Angeles, where I lived until I was married some 25 years ago. I then moved to La Canada, and have lived there ever since. My occupation is realtor, and I have been with the W. Ross Campbell Co., in Los Angeles, some 29 years.

From personal experience, skiing has been a part of the Boy Scout program.

As a volunteer worker, I have been active in youth work since my college days in such organizations as the Boy Scouts, YMCA, and church groups. My particular interest is in the Boy Scouts of America.

In addition to serving in various council activities in the Los Angeles Area Council and the San Gabriel Valley Council, I have been the "radio scoutmaster of the air" for the past 25 years on radio station KFI.

For many years, I have been a member of the Sierra Club, and have supported their conservation activities. I am a member of the Audubon Society, the National Forest Association, Save-the-Redwoods League, and the National Wild Life Foundation, all of which groups are active in conservation work.

Our family has been active in skiing, as a family sport. My two daughters started skiing when they were 5 years old. One of my daughters competed 2 years in the Junior National Ski Championships. I own stock in Snow Summit, Snow Valley, and Big Pines ski lifts.

I am a member of the Century Club of the Far West Ski Association. I have given you my background to indicate that I am vitally interested in both conservation and skiing.

I am appearing here today in favor of the development of San Gorgonio area for downhill skiing because I feel that if the area is properly developed it will create greater interest in our wilderness and at the same time, make San Gorgonio available in the wintertime to the thousands of skiers in the southern California area.

I have hiked, skied, and camped in the San Gorgonio area. A wellplanned development can take place at the high elevation without damaging the hiking and camping corridors of South Fork Meadows and Dollar Lake and the trail to the peak itself.

By proper development, I mean no development of "Christmas Tree Hill," or roads or ski lifts in or through South Fork Meadows-Dollar Lake areas. The great skiing area in San Gorgonio lies in the upper elevations where minimum tree removal is necessary. There should be no overnight facilities (except for the employees necessary to run the lifts) to or in the now existing wilderness areas.

In other words, I favor the development of the area strictly for getting people of southern California to the good skiable snow of high altitude San Gorgonio and the use of good ski lifts to serve the skiers using that long-lasting good snow.

San Gorgonio can still be a refuge for those seeking wilderness values and at the same time, a training ground for our young future Olympic skiers and a great family skiing recreation area.

No other place offers so much for so many who live so nearby. The Dyal bill should be passed by Congress to open the San Gorgonio area for family winter recreation.

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. BARING. The next witness is Mr. David J. Andrew.

STATEMENT OF DAVID J. ANDREW, CHAIRMAN, COORDINATING COMMITTEE, SUBDISTRICT II, DISTRICT NO. 38, UNITED STEELWORKERS OF AMERICA

Mr. ANDREW. I am chairman, Coordinating Committee, Subdistrict II, District No. 38, of the United Steelworkers of America and I haveor, I am here today to speak in behalf of this organization.

We have taken a position that we believe that the release of the 10 percent of the San Gorgonio in question (that area above the timberline) in the wilderness area would be put to the best use as a recreational area, primarily, because this is of little use to the hikers and campers in view of its barren, inaccessible terrain.

However, in our request for this area, we would like to instill in this committee's mind that as well as having ski and snow enthusiasts, our organization is eminently aware that a great percentage of our people are also interested in the extended use of the wilderness area as it is today.

These same people who wish to preserve the wilderness state are, in most cases those who would be interested in the use of the facilities proposed above the timberline that are at present neither available nor of good use to anybody.

I would like to reiterate, one of our primary concerns is that the present area set aside for wilderness becomes a paramount issue in its preservation; that is, access and type of establishments to be used by the skiers shall not, in any way become obtrusive or offensive to the present use of this area.

We have built this country on the free enterprise system and we can only exist and thrive on the free enterprise system; however, free enterprise can never be allowed to infringe upon individual rights.

Therefore, the investment of capital by a private concern always has and must in the future depend upon the acceptance of the general public.

Upon acceptance of the general public, in our opinion, a proposed recreational area use of the 10 percent above the timberline in the San Gorgonio Wildlife Area (I might add, without interference to the wildlife area) is not only a big step in building the conscientious forward-looking trend of our country, but also provides a necessary and diversified recreation for the people of California, keeping in mind that as a rapidly growing State, and most especially, in southern California, we need something for everybody.

This, in our opinion, would give a tremendous amount of impetus to our State in regard to diversification in recreation as well as the general use and needs of the people.

Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

The next speaker is Mr. Arthur Robinson.

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR M. ROBINSON, INDIVIDUAL, RIVERSIDE, CALIF.

Mr. ROBINSON. I am 40 years old, married and have four children; twin boys age 6 and a twin boy and girl age 3 years.

I am in favor of opening a portion of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area for family winter recreational use; including the installation of ski lifts, provided the required development remains within the jurisdiction of the Forest Service so as to insure the proper development of the area allotted.

Basically, this hearing is concerned with recreation and specifically we are considering the desires of skiers and other winter sport enthusiasts.

Like so many skiers, I was first introduced to the sport in college. It is an individual sport that gives one a feeling of accomplishment. It is also a sport that our whole family can participate in together and one that we will be able to enjoy for many years to come.

Excluding travel costs, skiing is no more expensive than golf, bowling, or other sports requiring special facilities, the equipment costs are no more than for golf, surfing, or a well-equipped backpacker. Since it is a challenging sport, students find in skiing a purpose for which to conserve their money and time so as to enjoy its pleasures.

Unlike many school sports, they will, if the facilities are available be able to enjoy the sport through their adulthood.

The San Gorgonio area because of its north facing and high altitude provides the only reliable snow in southern California. Having this area opened to skiing will allow the southern California skier a chance to enjoy the winter activity a greater number of days per year, every

year.

It will reduce the travel required for many skiers and for many parents it will relieve them of the concern for their children driving these many miles from northern areas at night, tired from a day's skiing, and often in foul weather.

I am aware that there are many camps outside the wilderness area that include in their activities hiking in the wilderness area and that these campers naturally learn to appreciate the beauties of this area.

The same is true for the winter sport enthusiast, who cannot help but be impressed with the natural beauty of the area and while on the mountain derives the same pleasures of his "commune with nature" as his summer counterpart.

One particular notable difference between the summer backpacker and the winter skier is that far more women participate in winter skiing than in summer backpacking.

The point, however, is that to be in the mountain surroundings has the same "therapeutic" effect on the winter sport enthusiast as on the summer hiker and that both of these users are people of equal responsibility in their care and concern for the area.

The desire for the opening of this area will continue to mount as the southern California population increases and as winter sports grow. The technical problem of sanitation, roads, parking, and lift location are discussed by others more qualified than myself. However, it is obvious that those using the area, if served by lifts and other facilities, would have greater safety facilities available than the skier now using the area.

These facilities and roads would make the area more available in the event of an emergency, such as a plane crashing into the mountains. The San Bernardino, Redlands, Riverside area would benefit from the day-use of the proposed skiing facility by providing lodging and restaurant facilities that now are mainly in use in the summertime.

According to the weather reports, the storm now in progress is producing snow above 7,000 feet. None of the present facilities in southern California could operate, but if there were facilities on San Gorgonio, snow would be falling on the whole area proposed for lifts and skiers would be planning on their Thanksgiving trips to "San G” rather than Alta, Mammoth, or the Tahoe area.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

We will have our next speaker, Mr. Corsaut.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS E. CORSAUT, INDIVIDUAL, LOS ANGELES,

CALIF.

Mr. CORSAUT. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, counsel, and staff.

My name is Thomas Corsaut. I reside in Los Angeles, and am here today to testify in favor of Congressman Dyal's family winter recreation bill, H.R. 6891.

The San Gorgonio area is really two distinctly different areas.

One-tenth of the area is mountainous-high and unforested Alpine terrain, much of which is ideal for skiing.

Some nine-tenths of the area, about 31,500 acres, is wooded, and is utilized for camping and hiking. The mountain area is remote from the camping area, being more than 2 miles to the southeast.

If this area is opened for skiing, there would be a seasonal separation just as distinct as the geographical separation. The camping season runs about from May through October, while the skiing season would cover the months of November through April.

The area is clearly suitable for both camping and skiing without compromising the enjoyment of either group.

Since its advent in this country only 30 years ago, skiing has become an immensely popular form of recreation, and the outlook is for more and more Americans to take up skiing in almost geometric proportions. Currently, about 2 percent of the U.S. population goes skiing. There are approximately 340,000 skiers in California, of which 160,000 live in the Greater Los Angeles area.

Mount San Gorgonio's altitude assures the only reliable skiing in southern California. Its proximity to our burgeoning metropolitan area is another major factor which should not be overlooked, since the nearest reliable skiing is now 350 miles distant.

Skiing entails the use of ski lift facilities; without lifts, it is merely another and more strenuous form of hiking, in which only a hardy few could participate. Learning to ski is virtually impossible when 80 percent of one's time and energy is expended trudging up a slope.

Skiing is an exciting and adventuresome form of recreation, and, as in any challenging sport, there are occasional accidents and injuries, a few of which must receive prompt treatment.