First" boom. During that period, contrary to the original conception of national parks as outdoor museums, public interest in the national parks favored an outdoor playground aspect. As outdoor recreation gradually came of age, and as its pattern assumed a more logical course, the National Park Service intensified its efforts to shelve this viewpoint. The public, however, conditioned by the playground notion, has been loath to alter that point of view. As a result too few people understand the basic difference between national parks and other types of extensive interesting outdoor recreational lands. Areas established because of significant features of interest should be large enough to ensure adequate protection of their values, the necessary size being dependent upon the type of interest involved. An area of less than a city block may be satisfactory for the preservation of an important historical structure in a metropolitan center. On the other hand, the preservation of a biological community will require much more expansive terrain; in addition to land embracing the biological community itself, adjacent territory which contributes to its existence should also be included. And from chapter 8, page 210. In particular the phenomenal development of interest in skiing has complicated the administration of certain national parks if this activity follows a pattern adapted to primary national park purposes, which require that varied winter interests be enjoyed in a truly natural manner. It has been stated repeatedly that the national parks are essentially outdoor museums, not resorts or playgrounds. To maintain this fundamental concept it is necessary to prevent introduction of resort or playground activities; the significant inspirational quality of national park scenery must be guarded, winter and summer, from development of both physical modification and public attitudes which might undermine the basic national park idea. Thus large permanent physical facilities such as chairlifts and development of competitive winter sports shows which attract large numbers of spectators are not keeping with the purpose of national parks. That completes my statement; thank you very much. If there are any questions, I will be happy to answer them. Mr. JOHNSON. I missed your statement there where you said you were making a study? Mr. WILLIAMS. I just completed a study which was for the city of Bishop, for the Bishop Chamber of Commerce and I have done alsoalthough the chamber paid for it-it was for the city of Bishop and for the county of Inyo. This was an economic impact on freeway bypass, which the State division of highways has projected to go around the city. In order to determine the economic impact, I had to make a study and projection of the recreational activities which is the major industry in Inyo and Mono Counties. This, of course, includes skiing activity in Mammoth, this being a very important part of the economy of the city of Bishop. Mr. BARING. Mr. Hosmer, do you have any questions? Mr. HOSMER. No, Mr. Chairman, I think not at this time Mr. BARING. Mr. Tunney, do you have any questions of the witness? Mr. TUNNEY. Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Williams, have you studied the possibility of how many more people would use San Gorgonio as a ski area if it were developed, rather than staying at home? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I have not. Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir, and I will have to say that this study which I have done has been done on my own and has to be done, of course, in extra time I have now, at least six jobs underway. I do not know. Mr. TUNNEY. How many people from southern California, Los Angeles, and San Diego and Riverside, the three-county area, are going to ski resorts in northern California? Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say that I do not know the exact figures, but I do know, for example, in Mammoth, they are getting over 90 percent of their people from the Los Angeles-San Bernardino-San DiegoRiverside area. Mr. TUNNEY. Do you know, sir, if there has been any type of study conducted that would indicate if the number of skiers in southern California would increase if they developed the opening of the San Gorgonio area? Mr. WILLIAMS. There are no studies like that that I know of; there are claims, but I know of no studies. I know of things that-well, I know of no thing to either prove or disprove that. Mr. TUNNEY. I cannot understand why there has not been a study of that kind. This is a very material point which our committee certainly should have. We are talking about the recreational advantages of San Gorgonio in the wintertime if it was opened up and apparently no one has any idea of who would use it, the number of people who would use it; the number of people who would use it rather than going to other ski resorts; whether more skiers would be developed, et cetera, or any of that information. Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right, I think there is a great need for this type of economic study. The problem is, the studies do take a lot of time and cost of lot of money. It has been pretty impossible for volunteer groups to do that type of research. Mr. TUNNEY. To your knowledge, is any kind of study being projected for the future on this point? Mr. WILLIAMS. Not that I know of. I would say that economic studies for something like this are usually done by a prospective developer. I would imagine, in fact I would be fairly certain in saying that, for example, Walt Disney did a complete economic survey before he made his bid in Mineral King. Of course, these are not open to the public; I mean, they are usually very confidential studies and are not given out for public use. I do not know of any, at the present time, economic studies such as this at this time. I do know that the San Bernardino County Regional Parks Department was just created a year ago and they are working on a master plan of parks for San Bernardino County. They are taking into consideration the Federal lands and the State lands to create this master plan. Economic studies will be done by the regional parks department. They-or, their first job was at Prado Basin and I am doing the economic studies on that. Mr. TUNNEY. I have a couple of questions for Dr. Leovy. Dr. Leovy, have you ever been up in the San Gorgonio in the wintertime; have you ever skied up there? Dr. LEOVY. I have never skied in San Gorgonio in the winter; no. My statements were based exclusively on the data that I have here. Mr. TUNNEY. Have you ever been there in the wintertime? Dr. LEVOY. In the winter? [Pause.] Dr. LEOVY. Not to my memory, not in the dead of winter; no, sir. I have been there in the late fall when there has been snow and during the summer. Mr. TUNNEY. How did you prepare your estimates as to the skiable days? Dr. LEOVY. The data for 1963–64 and 1964-65 came from the Forest Service skiability survey. Now, the data for 1961-62 and 1962-63 were based on the snow depths which were from surveys for the San Gorgonio Area and the causedents of storms; that is, I tried to estimate the depths of snow during given periods of time, to interpolate between snow survey periods, in other words, as well as a qualitative summary given in the Forest Service report on skiing, skiability and ski conditions during those years. Mr. TUNNEY. Well, how deep does snow have to be, in your estimation, to make it a skiable day? Dr. LEOVY. I am not an expert on this but it depends very much on the character of the slope, the character of the slope conditions, the amount of rocks, the manicure; that is, how well manicured it is, and so forth. Mr. TUNNEY. In preparing your estimates, what did you take into consideration? Dr. LEOVY. On the 1961-62 and the 1963-I mean, 1962-63 season, I estimated the number of skiable days and I took about 12 to 15 inches as being necessary for a skiable day on San Gorgonio. However, there was, on the 19th of April, there was a Forest Service survey which indicated somewhat greater depths on San Gorgonio than this 12- to 15inch snow. However, the commentary associated with that was that no slope would have been suitable for skiing due to rocks, trees, and other obstacles showing on the slopes. Therefore, I took that as a cutoff date for skiable conditions during that particular year. Mr. TUNNEY. Is the same thing true with regard to snow summit that you used? Dr. LEOVY. On snow summit, it was based on; one, whether they were operating a training skiing condition going there and their somewhat lower snow depths involved, but this is because the slopes are extremely well manicured and cared for over there. Mr. TUNNEY. Would the quality of the snow be taken into consideration? Dr. LEOVY. In the survey, in my account, I have not taken into account the quality of the snow. I cannot say that the quality of the snow is going to make too much difference-well, it is going to depend pretty much on the weather conditions. Here is another area where I feel that the comparison with Mammoth, another northern California area, is not justified. The reason for this is that, although southern California mountains. may get a lot of snow, they get it in a few heavy storms, usually scattered very well apart. Now, the difference between the storms, the time interval between storms, is very important in determining the snow conditions. This is because between storms you have warm weather frequently, very warm weather and temperatures up into the fifties and sixties even on San Gorgonio. This causes freezing and thawing on the surface and alternate icy and mushy conditions of the snow. So, the snow does deteriorate rapidly as the interval between storms increases. In northern California, the storms are very frequent, much more frequent than down here, as a rule. Mr. TUNNEY. But, I would assume that because of the elevation, that the snow deteriorates less rapidly on San Gorgonio? Dr. LEOVY. I assume that San Gorgonio does have better snow conditions than the other operative ski areas. Mr. TUNNEY. Thank you, sir; that is all I have. Mr. BARING. There being no further questions, gentlemen, we thank you very much. The next panel is Mr. J. D. Flournoy, California Wildlife; Mr. Jack Franck, California Camping Association; Roland Ross; and Mr. Alan E. Ellis. Apparently Mr. Flournoy is not here. Our next speaker will be Mr. Franck. STATEMENT OF JOHN L. FRANCK, FOREST HOME CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE CENTER, FOREST HILLS, CALIF. Mr. FRANCK. I appreciate the opportunity of talking to you gentlemen. When the hearing was held in Washington, I know it was hard for those of us that live and work in the area and on the mountain to get there. I come this morning to represent the Southern California Camping Association, which is a section of the American Camping Association which represents the Youth Serving Agency, private camps, and church camps in southern California. This group conducted a survey of their members which represents the professional campers in this area and the results of the survey were that 94 percent of those people voted "No" and were opposed to opening up this area. Six percent voted "Yes." I also come and represent, this morning, the Christian Camp & Conference Association which has a southern section here and the California Legislative Council of America Camping Association which is a council that represents all of the camping industry in California whose primary concern has been legislation and the inter pretation of legislation for the camping industry in California, representing again church camps, agency camps, and private camps. I would like to just briefly summarize my testimony and make a few additional points. I have lived in this area and camped on this mountain since 1941. I am a professional camper and have been operating a camp on the slopes of San Bernardino and San Gorgonio for 21 years and our camp has been in operation since 1938 under the present operators. The camp was started in 1895 and so has a long history in this mountain area. We serve some 40,000 campers in our camps alone. First, the loss of financial resource is irreplaceable and we have seen things happen to the mountain through the years of our operation. Secondly, I believe that skiing is not necessarily a family sport recreation. It is not a family recreation within the reach of the average home or family, and I would be happy to answer any questions on that point. It will not prevent juvenile delinquency and as some have said, it is not a panacea to all the ills. Fourth, church and youth-serving agencies do provide a complete program for family and youth recreation at a fraction of the cost. Also, Government land, if Government land is given away, it should be put in the hands of agencies and institutions that are nonprofit corporations. Now, I operated and worked in this camping area during these years. Right now, in the San Bernardino National Forest, in the Cleveland National Forest, in the Angeles National Forest, there are, according to the Forest Service, no organizational campsites available for this kind of an institution or agency to operate a camp. Today, it is the policy of the Government to give 10 acres of land to a camp for boys and girls or a family recreational camp; only 10 acres. There are no sites available and yet the Camp Bureau in Los Angeles has on file some 60 requests from agencies and groups in the Los Angeles area and southern California for campsites. The cost of any kind of land for a nonprofit corporation today has skyrocketed far beyond our means: we operate a camp of 600 acres but, to replace that today, or even to buy additional land in our area has gone beyond-far beyond the reach of a corporation like we have. Finally, I would like to say that I believe in some kind of presentation like we have here today that we are losing sight of the fact that just recreation by itself, without proper leadership, a child or a group of children out on the mountain does not accomplish anything until you put them next to real leadership. There are youth-serving agencies, church groups, and other people who desperately need land. We are not asking for wilderness land; but, if land was going to be made available, I submit that this is the kind of uses that we should be putting it to. In conclusion, our greatest natural resources is just not our mountains and these other things, but it is our youth. I have invested my life as an adult in working with youth and boys and girls and with families. For 28 years we have operated a |