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The CHAIRMAN. And if the tentative estimate of the acreage required for the large dam is correct, it would probably not take an excessive additional acreage of land then, particularly if 2,460 acres were required for the small dam and 5,430 acres for the high dam, or power dam?

General ROBINS. The acreage required for the flood-control dam would be considerably less, but if the dam is built so that eventually it can be raised, arrangements will have to be made at the same time for the eventual acquisition of the additional land and it is fair to notify people as to that and the land possibly should be acquired and they allowed to use it.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

CLARION RIVER, PA.

STATEMENT OF HON. L. H. GAVIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE TWENTIETH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

Mr. GAVIN. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I want to call your attention to the Clarion River, which is one of the tributaries of the Allegheny River. We have a situation up there of three small communities at the upper branches of the Clarion River that have been subjected to terrific punishment for many, many years. I never fully realized how seriously they suffered until I went over there after one of the recent flash floods a year ago.

The particular area in which I am interested is in Elk County, Pa., the towns of Johnsonburg, Ridgway, and St. Marys. These flood waters come down that valley and sweep through these three towns with devastating recurrent loss, periodically in the spring and fall.

I am like the distinguished gentleman from Ohio. I listened to his economy-minded Governor Bricker last night talk about Ohio, and he glibly talked about $100,000,000 for the State of Ohio. I will not ask so large an amount, but I would like to see included in any bills that might come up at least sufficient to bring relief to those people who are constantly and periodically under a terrific hazard on account of these floods which I have mentioned. Whole industries are washed out; whole rows of houses are bowled over. These floodwaters should be controlled and the water harnessed for useful industrial and domestic purposes to bring some good to the people in the lower valley. I would like to see the Flood Control Committee recommend that immediate and serious consideration be given to a study and survey of that entire area. Not that it is going to take 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years. These people have suffered long enough, and there is economic justification for getting the job done at a very early date.

I sincerely appreciate the distinguished chairman of the committee recommending to General Robins that the engineers immediately proceed to get the approximate cost, so that we can ascertain what the job will cost, and get it done, to give those people some relief from these devastating recurrent floods.

The CHAIRMAN. It strikes me that there is a real problem there. That particular locality was not brought to the attention of the committee until you, sometime ago, spoke with the chairman about it. But

I would say that generally Pennsylvania has not been neglected by this committee. There were probably the largest authorizations for Pennsylvania in 1936, 1938, and 1941 than for any other State in the Union.

Mr. GAVIN. I might say to the chairman, rightfully so, because I represent a State of 11,000,000 people, producing 30 percent of all the war materials, with over a million men in the armed forces. One flood alone cost us some $300,000,000. These waters that we are talking about should have been harnessed long ago. There was an opportunity to economically justify the money expended, through the saving of life and property. It was never done before, but it is now being done, and we are very grateful. I think my State is deserving of that consideration which is now being given, and it is regrettable that it was not given some 15 or 20 years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. We gave it to you as soon as we could.

General Robins and Colonel Goethals, I would like you to state what the situation is with respect to those projects, whether or not they are included in the projects that have been approved by the committee.

General ROBINS. They are not included at the present time in the Ohio River Basin project. They are being considered in a "308" report which has not yet reached Congress. We have not had time to cover all the small localities. However, we have made considerable investigations up there, and I think that it would be quite in order for the committee to consider the advisability, Mr. Chairman, of extending the Ohio River Basin project to enable the Chief of Engineers to select projects in this area as well as in other areas.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you bring that to our attention when we come to approve the bill?

General ROBINS. Yes.

Mr. ELLIOTT. General Robins, after you complete your findings, will they have to go before the Bureau of the Budget?

General ROBINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I want to say to the gentleman from Pennsylvania that I am heartily in accord with you, and I will do anything I can to help. But I have a project which has been before the Bureau of the Budget for 3 years. I do not want you to think that Santa Claus is still here, because he is not. I just want to tell you that the Bureau of the Budget has been considering it after the Army engineers have approved it, and it has been there for 3 years, and they have not yet let it get out of the door.

Mr. GAVIN. I have seen the flood conditions in these areas. I made trips through there and spent several days in each town. I have seen whole industries wiped out

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes; but these donkeys down here have not seen it. Mr. GAVIN. I may say to my distinguished friend from California that with all due respect to these irrigation projects, flood-control projects, hydroelectric projects, and all kinds of projects, I want to get back to the common people, these poor people back in the country that never have anybody to fight for them and who have to take this terrific punishment year after year. Now, let us give a little consideration to those people back in the rural areas who are appealing to us to give them some relief. That is what we want to do. I shall be glad

to go before the Appropriations Committee with the distinguished gentleman from California and request the necessary amount to do this job, and we will see if we cannot get some results.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have your statement, and you may make an additional statement, if you desire, on the 23d.

Mr. GAVIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF J. H. TURNER, MANAGER AND CHIEF ENGINEER OF THE HETCH-HETCHY WATER SUPPLY AND POWER PROPERTIES OF THE SAN FRANCISCO PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.

The CHAIRMAN. Please give your name and whom you represent, for the benefit of the record.

Mr. TURNER. My name is James H. Turner. I am a registered civil engineer in the State of California. My position is that of manager and chief engineer of the Hetch-Hetchy water supply and power properties of the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission?

The CHAIRMAN. Are those properties located on the Tuolumne River?

Mr. TURNER. The Hetch-Hetchy properties are on the Tuolumne River. I have a map here, Mr. Chairman. If you want to orient yourself with reference to the San Joaquin River, the State of California, and the city of San Francisco, I can show you on that map. We have a water supply and a power supply on the Tuolumne River. The city of San Francisco is on the Pacific Ocean, and our aqueduct is practically due east across the State of California for about 155 miles to our high dam, and the watershed goes to the watershed boundary of the high Sierras, about 200 miles from San Francisco. The CHAIRMAN. How far from the eastern line of California does it go?

Mr. TURNER. About 40 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, your aqueduct goes across the State of California. The Coast Range is in between. Do you cross that, too?

Mr. TURNER. We go through it with a tunnel. We have a 2812-mile tunnel between the San Francisco Bay area and the San Joaquin Valley.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does the San Joaquin take its source?

Mr. TURNER. In the high Sierras.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the Tuolumne River a tributary of the San Joaquin?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. It is the largest tributary. It contributes more water than any other stream entering the San Joaquin River.

The CHAIRMAN. The Kings and the Kern are farther on south, and they take their source in the high Sierras also, south of the San Joaquin?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; the San Joaquin is fed principally by streams that have their sources in the high Sierras. The San Joaquin has its source well south from the Tuolumne River.

The CHAIRMAN. I asked you if the Kings and the Kern were not south of San Joaquin. They empty into that basin and find their way into the San Joaquin, both of them?

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Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is your water supply now?

Mr. TURNER. We have a large dam at the Hetch-Hetchy Reservoir, at a 4,000-foot elevation in a granite formation of the Sierras.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Will you take the map of California there and show the chairman of the Sierra Nevadas? The aqueduct you are talking about runs directly east from San Francisco to Hetch-Hetchy Dam. Please hold your pointer up there.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Turner, we are hearing you informally because we are glad to oblige you, but you heard the statement of Colonel Goethals in which he gave us an abstract of this project which has not been transmitted to us yet and in which he stated that there was no conflict between his proposal and the continued utilization of your water supply. Do you concur in that statement or not?

Mr. TURNER. I concur in it; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you approve or disapprove of the project as recommended by him?

Mr. TURNER. I approve.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the matter that you want to bring out for the attention of the committee at the present time if you are in accord with his recommendations?

Mr. TURNER. I would like to have the record show certain things concerning the problem. We are in mutual agreement with the Army engineers. We have worked with them for probably years on this problem, and we have come to an agreement. The suggested legislation that Colonel Goethals has presented to you is entirely satisfactory. The CHAIRMAN. What is the matter that you would like to bring out in this connection?

Mr. TURNER. To give you a quick picture of the project. I will go through the project roughly and quickly. We have one very large dam at Hetch-Hetchy from which the water flows down the river 12 miles and is then carried through 18 miles of tunnel.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the size of the tunnel?

Mr. TURNER. Ten feet in diameter where lined with concrete. From the end of this tunnel the water is carried by 1 mile of tunnel and 1 mile of penstock to the moccasin powerhouse. From here the water that we do not carry to San Francisco for water-supply purposes passes through another tunnel 6 miles long and is dropped back into the river at the Don Pedro Reservoir which is owned and operated by two large and well managed and well financed irrigation districts of Turlock and Modesto. Some irrigation districts went down in 1929, but these two are still operating. The water is passed to Lagrange and diverted to the irrigation systems of these districts. I also represent them here before you as the Modesto and the Turlock irrigation districts and the city of San Francisco are cooperating in the development and utilization of the waters of the Tuolumne River.

The CHAIRMAN. You concur in Colonel Goethal's statement on the improvements desired and as modified by the local interests?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. Such water as goes to San Francisco from Hetch-Hetchy we carry through 10 miles more of tunnel, then across the valley in a pipe line, and through the Coast Range, through a 2812-mile tunnel, and up the peninsula in pipes and tunnels to San Francisco. We are furnishing today large quantities of Hetch Hetchy water to the city and county of San Francisco.

The CHAIRMAN. By pipe line from Don Pedro?

Mr. TURNER. No. It comes by pipe lines and tunnels from HetchHetchy. It flows by gravity to San Francisco from this point [indicating O'Saughnessy Dam on map].

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any larger water supply, outside of the Boulder Dam, than you have there?

Mr. TURNER. The Los Angeles metropolitan district developed a larger supply than ours.

The CHAIRMAN. The metropolitan district of New York developed a supply from the Catskills. They require more water than San Francisco?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. On the power end of it we have a 3,300-kilovolt-ampere plant at Early Intake and an 80,000-kilovolt-amperes plant at Moccasin. The irrigation districts have a 4,300-kilovolt-amperes plant at Lagrange and a 20,538-kilovolt-amperes plant at the Don Pedro Reservoir. The power from the Hetch-Hetchy plant is transmitted by city-owned transmission line to the aluminum plant at Riverbank and into the power pool facilities in the bay area. The power from the irrigation district plants is distributed to consumers in the districts.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the interests you represent here, the city of San Francisco, the metropolitan area, the agricultural interests on the river, favor the report an abstract of which has been submitted to the committee?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other statement that you would care to make?

Mr. TURNER. Yes. I have a statement that I would like to put into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be glad to have you file your statement. Mr. TURNER. I have a written statement, and I would like to read a few abstracts from it.

The CHAIRMAN. Just emphasize those points.

Mr. TURNER. First of all, I would like to file this statement.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not want to cut you off, but there is no use reading from it if you are going to file it.

Mr. TURNER. It is just a brief statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Give us an abstract of it, then.

Mr. TURNER. There are a few other matters that I would like to get into the record, if I may, such as the action of the public-utilities commission in approving the report that I made to them recommending concurrence with the Army engineers' proposal; also a resolution of the Modesto and Turlock irrigation districts directors' meeting jointly, approving the same report.

If you think it of interest I would like to file for the record a copy of the cooperative agreement between the city and the irrigation districts.

The CHAIRMAN. Frankly, because you have asked my opinion, I think it would properly come before us when we have the engineers'

report.

Mr. TURNER. There is one two-page agreement that may be advisable to consider at this time. It indicates that the city and the districts have a comprehensive plan for development and use of the

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