Mr. ELLIOTT. I think it is important to have it in the record.
Mr. SHEPPARD. I think so, too.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Wilson?

Mr. WILSON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Griffiths?

Mr. GRIFFITHS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Curtis?

Mr. CURTIS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any further statement that you would like to submit for the record?

Mr. PITTMAN. None other than the fact that the importance of this should be given study and consideration in order to aid the military authorities should we have a recurrence of the flood of 1938.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you interested in aiding anybody except the military authorities?

Mr. PITTMAN. Naturally we are interested in aiding ourselves.
The CHAIRMAN. Naturally. I thought you were.

Mr. PITTMAN. This river has no sustained, fixed yardstick, such as the Mississippi, the Missouri, and other rivers.

The CHAIRMAN. Ours are not very sustained either.

Mr. SHEPPARD. Mr. Chairman, out of courtesy to the next witness, who has not a great deal of time, I would like to call Mr. Victor V. Boatner, of the Division of Railway Transport, Office of Railway Transportation. He has to get back.

STATEMENT OF VICTOR V. BOATNER, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF RAILWAY TRANSPORT, OFFICE OF DEFENSE TRANSPORTATION

The CHAIRMAN. Give the reporter your name and official position and your experience in connection with railroads, please.

Mr. BOATNER. My name is Victor V. Boatner, Director of the Division of Railway Transport, in the Office of Defense Transportation, with which I have been since its inception, more than 2 years. I have been in the railroad business on the operating side for more than 40 years.

The CHAIRMAN. With what lines?

Mr. BOATNER. With the Illinois Central System, the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley, down where you and I come from. I was there some 20 years. I was with the Peoria & Perkin Union for 8 years; with the Great Western for 2 years; the Gulf, Mobile & Northern, and the Gulf, Mobile & Ohio for some 7 or 8 years.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed with your statement with respect to the matter in hand.

Mr. BOATNER. In respect to this Lytle Creek matter, it came to our attention early in 1942 when they had some heavy rains out there, and the Southern Pacific, the Santa Fe, the Pacific Electric, and the Union Pacific, all of which were very close together there-the Union Pacific uses the Santa Fe rails jointly-were interrupted by floods in this Lytle Creek for some 2 or 3 days, as I remember it; about 3 days, I think it was. At that time it was very embarrassing, because we had a lot of construction work going on and much traffic was delayed. Since that time the port of Los Angeles has become much more important from a military and naval viewpoint, and any interruption would be very serious in that respect.

It so happens that all four of the lines are in very close proximity there. This creek is more or less of a dry-sand bed in normal times, but it is at the foot of the mountains and gluches, and when there is a heavy rainfall, of course, it overflows. It is not just water; it has sand with it. It was so bad in the instance to which I referred, in early 1942, that the sand was up to the top of the boxcars.

I was out there in May, last year, and went over the situation for the purpose of getting a close view of what it was. Any serious waterfall or heavy waterfall out there will inevitably overflow the tracks. The bridges above the stream are not over 4 or 5 or 6 feet. When the stream gets up to the bridges, if they hold, then the water spreads all over the yards which are adjacent to the creek, so far as the Santa Fe, Union Pacific, and Pacific Electric are concerned.

A little farther down is the Southern Pacific, which is also interrupted, but the overflow of sand and debris is not quite so great as in the case of the other railroads. A great deal of it is stopped by the facilties of the other carriers, but all of them are interrupted as to all of the flow of traffic into that area from the east, and its predominating flow must go over these lines both ways, which means that most of the consumptive goods, most of that which is produced in that area, which amounts to a large quantity of fruits, vegetables, etc., moves out through these avenues.

Some 85 miles east of San Bernardino the Santa Fe's San Francisco line diverges and goes northwesterly and, after crossing a considerable desert stretch at a place called Mojave, intercepts the Southern Pacific line from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

The CHAIRMAN. About how far from Los Angeles?

Mr. BOATNER. It would be about 102 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. From Los Angeles?

Mr. BOATNER. From Mojave. These lines of the Southern Pacific going northwardly to San Francisco out of Los Angeles are singletrack lines, and they go over heavy grades which are already congested with traffic at this time. It is probably twice as heavy as it was before, but it has been that way ever since the emergency started, and promises to continue that way until after the war is over and for some time thereafter.

In this area there is a heavy training area. By "heavy" I mean that large numbers of troops are trained in that desert territory, and they are shipped into and out of there over these lines, and the passenger traffic incident to that is very great.

We are moving into Los Angeles at this time a great deal of export traffic for the harbor area and the whole district there, and we are also importing some Australian and South Pacific stuff. But the major portion of the traffic eastwardly out of there is fruits, vegetables, and other commodities from the rich valleys adjacent to Los Angeles and which is moving out concurrently with all this other traffic.

The roads in all of the western region beyond the Rocky Mountains are so heavily burdened at this time with traffic that it is necessary from day to day to divert a reasonably small amount, 50 to 150 cars being daily routed from one to the other. One is in a little better shape than the other, and when an interruption occurs it backs up and it is just impossible to handle it any other way. We have superimposed a more congested condition on lines already burdened

and seriously delaying other traffic, perhaps of equal importance, on account of that situation.

As an illustration, on the first of February or thereabouts, a fire took place in a tunnel in the Feather River Canyon area on the Western Pacific, and it is still going on. The Southern Pacific, the only line adjacent to it, was so heavily burdened that we could not put a very large amount of this traffic over on the Southern Pacific and continue. We now have dammed up at Salt Lake City and Ogden some 2,500 loaded cars for the San Francisco area. We are throwing a small amount of them down over the Santa Fe and the Southern Pacific in order to get the traffic to San Francisco, because the other lines of the Southern Pacific westwardly are overloaded.

Those conditions obtain on all of the lines from the Union PacificSouthern Pacific-Western Pacific area down to the Mexican border, and is only to a lesser degree applicable to the lines to Seattle and Portland. But those lines are not so badly congested as the lines in this area. It would be difficult to find quite so concentrated traffic or an interruption that would cause so much disturbance as that which exists in the San Bernardino-Colton area which embraces a territory of normally 3 or 4 miles so far as railroad facilities are concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. This line that you speak of from the Santa Fe over to the Southern Pacific, 102 miles away, is up in the mountainous area where you can ride in a passenger train and see the engine come around to meet you?

Mr. BOATNER. Yes. It is filled with very important business. Much of it is through movements back and forth.

The CHAIRMAN. Your transportation problem has been greatly increased because of the submarine menace preventing ships from going through the Panama Canal, such as used to be the case?

Mr. BOATNER. That is true. The situation promises to continue for some time. At least those are the calculations of everybody connected with it.

It came to Mr. Eastman's attention prior to my going out into that area last May, and after some investigation and reports from myself and others on information we got from the carriers, Mr. Eastman wrote to Maj. Gen. Eugene Reybold, Chief of Engineers, War Department, a letter dated May 12, 1943, which outlines in brief form his information in respect to this particular item of hazard. It might be well to include that as a part of your record in respect to the Cajon and Lytle Creek situation.

Mr. SHEPPARD. I ask unanimous consent of the committee that the letter be placed in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that will be done.

(The letter referred to and submitted by the witness is here printed in full as follows:)

Maj. Gen. EUGENE REYBOLD,

MAY 12, 1943.

Chief of Engineers, War Department, Washington, D. C. DEAR GENERAL REYBOLD: As I am charged by the President with the duty of maintaining uninterrupted transportation service in furtherance of the war effort, I am writing you in regard to a matter which, in my opinion, is of con

siderable importance in this connection. This communication is being addressed to you as it is my understanding that you now have the subject under consideration and that the procedure is for you to make your recommendation as Chief of Engineers to the commanding general, Army Service Forces.

The Southern Pacific Co., the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway Co., and the Union Pacific Railroad Co. have presented certain information and data to me showing the serious interruption of transportation service and delay in the transportation of war traffic occurring on their lines because of the overflow of Cajon and Lytle Creeks, in San Bernardino County, Calif., in January of this year. Such overflow has occurred before and may occur again at any time. The January flood of this year resulted in such damage to these railroad facilities as to seriously delay the transportation of war and other traffic, including military personnel and equipment. The Union Pacific Railroad Co. operates over the line of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway Co. in this locality. As you are doubtless already informed, the lines of railroad cut and damaged by this flood are main lines of railroad heavily engaged in the transportation of traffic in furtherance of the war effort.

Attached are certain statements and material furnished me by the abovenamed railroads, which I think warrant my following certification:

Of course, it is not my function to suggest or recommend the adoption of any particular plan for the control of overflow at Cajon and Lytle Creeks in San Bernardino County, Calif. I am informed that your department has fully investigated this. However, as Director of the Office of Defense Transportation, charged with the duty of maintaining uninterrupted transportation service in furtherance of the war effort, I have thought it appropriate that I let you have an expression of my opinion in regard to the proposed flood control which would assure against further interruption of essential transportation service on these railroads from this cause. In my opinion, this flood-protection work proposed can properly be considered a war emergency measure, under existing conditions, to avoid possible future serious interruptions of this essential rail transportation service.

Very truly yours,

JOSEPH B. EASTMAN, Director.

Mr. BOATNER. I do not think there is anything further that I can

say.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your interesting state

ment.

Mr. POULSON. I would like to ask one question. To sum it up, would you say this project is necessary because of the over-all major military activities which will naturally intensify with the progress of the Japanese war?

Mr. BOATNER. That is anticipated. To what extent it will intensify it I am not prepared to say, or how long it will last; but I do say this, from my own observation of the situation, that it is a material hazard as long as it exists with so much involved in the way of vital traffic that has to flow over these channels and which would be practically suspended in case of a flood. And a suspension of this kind does not immediately dissolve when you restore the tracks, because, after a blockade of that kind, it takes weeks to catch up with it. We would probably be a week or 10 days getting to normal on the Southern Pacific.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions? (No response.) If not, we are glad to have had your statement.

Are there any local people except representatives of the railroads? Mr. SHEPPARD. There are not, outside of Congressman Phillips. The CHAIRMAN. Is Representative Phillips present?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

97311-44-vol. 2- -9

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN PHILLIPS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE TWENTY-SECOND DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

The CHAIRMAN. Please give to the reporter your name and the district which you represent.

Mr. PHILLIPS. My name is John Phillips, Congressman from the Twenty-second District of California.

The CHAIRMAN. That district includes what counties?

Mr. PHII LIPS. Riverside and Orange Counties.

The problem which we have under consideration is a very real problem. You gentlemen in the East laugh at us because you say that when we fall into a California river we get up and dust ourselves off. But we have seen those rivers as they are shown in the pictures, washing everything before them, by reason not only of a cloudburst, which has been mentioned here, but quite often because of an accumulation of snow, thousands of acres of snow; and a sudden warm spell, such as they have in Mr. Poulson's district, has come unexpectedly, and the water flows through an old river bed where people have built houses and it washes everything before it.

We are very glad to have Mr. Elliott and Mr. Poulson here, because they understand the problem and we have confidence in them.

Taking into consideration the military establishments there, such as the Army depot, the Kaiser plant, the training center, a flood in that section would be simply chaos.

It is, as Congressman Elliott said, a matter of very real emergency, and I hope something can be done now and not make us wait for some time in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much for your statement.

STATEMENT OF R. E. HALLAWELL, GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT OF TRANSPORTATION, SOUTHERN PACIFIC RAILROAD

The CHAIRMAN. Please state your name and occupation for the record.

Mr. HALLAWELL. My name is R. E. Hallawell. I am general superintendent of transportation, Southern Pacific Railroad.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a prepared statement that you would like to submit for the record?

Mr. HALLAWELL. I have not, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We would like to have any points that you can develop in addition to those that have been brought out by preceding witnesses. You may proceed and develop any point on this particular project that is under consideration in the metropolitan area involving the interim report, rather than the comprehensive report on the Santa Ana which has not been submitted to us as yet.

Mr. HALLAWELL. Thank you, sir.

Colton, in San Bernardino County, Calif., is located on the main line. of the Southern Pacific Railroad, 56 miles east of Los Angeles and 3 miles south of San Bernardino. It is at approximately the midpoint of some 15,400 operated miles of railroad of the Southern Pacific extending to New Orleans. At Colton is located a subterminal of the railroad which includes a main track and 19 miles of yard tracks.