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which was to make some economic studies of aeronautics. Syracuse University, which was also for a special purpose. The University of Michigan, which was a general purpose.

In addition to that, we established an airship institute at Akron, Ohio, under the auspices of Akron University and the California Institute of Technology. That was the main impetus that we gave to aeronautical education, and the aeronautical research.

In addition to that, we formed a committee on elemental and secondary aeronautical education; and aeronautic section of the Library of Congress; a model weather reporting service; roof marking campaigning; full flight testing for the study of fog-flying, which we thought was one of our most important enterprises;

I think we demonstrated at that time the possibility of landing in an aeroplane in a fog. We established the safe aircraft competition.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Who carried out those fog-flying experiments?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Lieutenant Doolittle and his staff of experts.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Now, Mr. Guggenheim, did you not early direct your attention to the importance of aerology in connection with aviation?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. We did.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. What steps did you take to contribute to that art?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. I think if you will permit me to read a few short extracts from some of these reports, it will save your time and also refresh my memory.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. To be specific, did you bring Dr. Rossby to this country?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. We did not bring him to this country, but after he arrived here we put him to what we thought was a more useful work than he was doing.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Was he one of the pioneer students, or rather one of the first students to adopt the aerological development that went forward in Norway?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. He was.
Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Under—what is that man's name?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Bjerknes; he had done a great deal of research abroad, and it was Rossby's mission to carry out that research in this country. We furthered his ambition and set up some aerological work.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Did you start the first model airway as far as aerological work is concerned?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. We did.
Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Between what points?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Between Los Angeles and San Francisco. If you will permit me to read one or two extracts from the chapter on Meteorology and Aids to Navigation, it may have some bearing on your present investigation.

Meteorology for aviation, which is a primary need for safe and successful air transport

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. What is the date of this?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. This was a report from 1926 and 1927; I think I wrote that; yes; it was on February 15, 1928.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. All right.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. (Reading:)

Meteorology for aviation, which is a primary need for safe and successful air transport, is in a primitive stage in the United States and far behind its organization in other countries where passenger-carrying services have been highly developed. In an attempt to cooperate with the United States Weather Bureau, a Committee on Aeronautical Meteorology has been organized, consisting of representatives of the War Department, Navy Department, and Department of Commerce, as well as a representative of the Weather Bureau. "Dr. C. G. Rossby, representing the fund, is chairman of this committee in Washington. The fund has provided an appropriation on the advice of this committee, to send a meterologist from the United States Weather Bureau to Europe to report on the fog and haze studies which have been very successfully made on the Continent.

Then we went on to say:

One of the chief purposes of this committee is to secure greater cooperation between the meteorologist and the air pilot with the view of making the information on weather conditions more complete and more available. As a rule, the meteorologist is not familiar with the requirements of flying; the pilot, in turn, is not familiar with the determining factors in weather conditions, nor does he interpret correctly the weather information which he receives.

Ultimately the airplane may be independent of atmospheric conditions. For the present, however, safety can only be assured where the pilot can gage his flights according to the weather which lies ahead of him. Under the present Weather Bureau arrangements in the United States, the weather reports come from five district centers and must of necessity be somewhat general. Local weather conditions are not adequately reported.

That was written 4 or 5 years ago. It was our hope to stimulate the weather service distribution.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Did that experiment of Rossby's encourage the development of the aerological service, in vogue along the airways of the United States?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. It did, to what extent they have now been developed, I do not know. I also do not know whether the disaster of the Akron on the Jersey coast could have been prevented had there been local weather reports available I do not know, but I think it is something which this work you are doing has some bearing upon..

In regard to that weather report on the model airway, I will read a brief statement: The country's first adequate and complete aeronautical weather reporting

was installed on the airway between Los Angeles and San Francisco in June 1928. The service was by way of demonstrating the necessity and value of a permanent arrangement of this kind, which would eventually include all of the Nation's airways.

Then another paragraph on transoceanic airship service:

The success of this system gives an indication of what can be done for transoceanic airship travel. A network of weather reporting stations at sea could be established by the simple expedient of extending present day international cooperation so as to obtain radio reports from all ships afloat. These reports would be sent to a central station where they would be available to all nuvigators. The system would be supplemented by the existing weather service ashore and additional terminal stations on the mainlar according to the location of the routes. If necessary, also, weather ships could be posted at any given point at sea where it would be strategic to report on the surrounding conditions.

If the ocean were covered with such a service, a dirigible need never run into a storm in crossing from one continent to another. The airship would upon occasion have to travel off the route so as to avoid bad weather, but the extra time required would, of course, be more than compensated for by the crusing speed of 70 miles an hour or more and the additional comfort and safety of the passengers. Also, these reports would enable the airship to locate and utilize following winds, which might more than make amends for deviation from a straight course. The flight of the Graf Zeppelin last fall would have been very

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greatly facilitated if adequate weather information had been available, and would have enabled the airship to avoid the squall that partially disabled it in mid-ocean and retarded its passage.

Colonel BRECKINRIDGE. Mr: Guggenheim, this committee is charged by the Congress with the duty, of making recommendations as to future policy concerning airships. Having developed your background, are you able to give this committee the benefit of your recommendations?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Well, I have always had a feeling that heavierthan-air craft provided the most fertile field for aviation development. I have also felt, however, that there were possibilities in lighter-thanair craft, not in competition but in a full development of aeronautics. I felt 5 years ago that the immediate future for an interoceanic travel was in the province of ligher-than-air. I think that is borne out. We have today the only interoceanic travel in lighter-than-air craft. I think, as times go on

The CHAIRMAN. By “we” you mean the_Graf Zeppelin?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. I refer to the Graf Zeppelin, but I mean the world in general, I am talking about aeronautics in general.

The CHAIRMAN. The world has one ship?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. It has one ship that is travelling, and that is the only interoceanic travel that has been taken by air.

The CHAIRMAN. And that had trouble in crossing the Atlantic a short time ago.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. No; that was in 1928; I am referring to the service across from Africa to South America, that I think Eckener carries on, so although there is only one, as you say, Mr. Chairman, the heavier-than-air, I am sorry to say, have not any; we do not have any in heavier-than-air. I think, as time goes on, that the development in heavier-than-air will more and more supersede the lighterthan-air.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt you there to ask you if you are quite accurate when you say that there are no heavier-than-air transportation companies? The French have successfully, as I have been advised, experimented with planes over a similar route to that of the Graf Zeppelin, and Pilot Mermaux of the French Air Union has made repeated flights, with crews, and carried mail through very severe storms, and we have our own Pan American flight.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. As to our own Pan American flight-
The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Answer the first question.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. In regard to the first question, it is true that the Lote Coere Lines, that was the name 5 years ago when they organized

The CHAIRMAN. It is known as the French Air Union.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. It originally was the Lote Coere Lines; they have been carrying mail across, but no passengers.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Positive.

The CHAIRMAN. What about our own--but they are carrying it over the route of the Graf Zeppelin?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Not over exactly the same route, but they are flying across the ocean with mail, but not with passengers. As far as the Pan American airships are concerned, I do not think that that is a route that can compete, that is, where lighter-than-air can possibly

compete, because they are flying coast lines all the way down where they go. The longest flight is about 400 miles from Jamaica to the mainland.

The CHAIRMAN. But they are operating, are they not, our PanAmerican lines are operating?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. I do not think lighter than air can compete on that line.

It is only across large stretches of ocean.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Colonel.
Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Well, I was nearly-

Representative DELANEY (interposing). Mr. Guggenheim, may I interrupt you please? You made a statement that you thought that the heavier-than-air machine would have, as I understood you to say, a better chance of success than the lighter than air, did you not?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Yes; I thought that eventually, and I still think that eventually heavier-than-air craft will fulfill all of the functions that lighter-than-air craft do today for commercial work.

Representative DELANEY. Now, in view of the fact that the lighterthan-air craft, such as the Macon, have a radius of 9,000 miles, how does that compare with a radius of a heavier-than-air craft carrying the same amount of passengers, for instance?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Well, the lighter-than-air craft has a very much larger radius, and that is why today I think its prospects are very much brighter for the immediate future of interoceanic travel, where stops are impossible. It needs that long range in order to fulfill its mission. A heavier-than-air craft just cannot go. But, as time goes on, as the range becomes larger, which it will, in heavier-than-air craft, as they are able to refuel from the sea in the air, probably the advantage that the lighter-than-air craft has today will be overcome, but I think today, and I thought five years ago it had an advantage. That has been brought out, I think, by the fact that the only passenger carrying across oceans today is by lighter than air.

I think as time goes on that that advantage will be more and more overcome by heavier-than-air. Mind you, I am talking purely from a commercial point of view. What the function of lighter-than-air may be for the Navy, I think is something for naval experts to pass on. I was merely a naval reserve officer, during the war, which was a good many years ago, and I would not attempt to give any expert advice on naval operations.

Representative DELANEY. There has been no heavier-than-air plane yet developed which could, even in a small way, measure up to the carrying capacity of a lighter-than-air machine.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. There has not.

Representative DELANEY. One of the objections to the heavierthan-air would be the almost impossible task of having a refueling at an intermediate point between here, we will say, Europe.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. At the moment that is impossible; I think that is in prospect.

Representative DELANEY. There is a possible chance of that being overcome?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Yes.

Representative DELANEY. Of course we have to realize too that one of the disadvantages of the lighter-than-air is the absence of stations to which it can be moored between here and other ports, in other words, if the lighter-than-air was going to Europe, if anything happened, it would be just too bad for the lighter-than-air machine.

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Yes, but I do not think that anything should happen, and I think the reason things do happen is because the art and science has not been sufficiently advanced.

Representative DELANEY. But you do believe it should be given more experimentation to develop it to the fullest degree before deciding adversely to the use of it?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Most decidely.
The CHAIRMAN. Or in favor of it?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. Or in favor of it. When we established the airship institute, which was the only research organization for lighterthan-air.

Representative DELANEY. Is that at Akron, Ohio?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. That is at Akron, Ohio; we had in mind at that time that not enough emphasis had been placed on lighter-than-air for a very good reason, it is so costly to carry on any experimentation in lighter-than-air. The great and historic Lindbergh flight, Colonel Lindbergh is here and will be able to bear me out, was carried on for $13,000, of which I think $2,000 was subscribed by himself.

Now, that was a great accomplishment for a small amount of money. You cannot carry on an experimentation with lighter-than-air without great expenditure.

The CHAIRMAN. In talking with Mr. Rogers who proceded you on the stand and testified here, he seemed to think a great deal of money is being spent in building these huge machines without the proper preparatory experimentation, with the engines, for instance; in other words we build a great bir machine, put these engines on there, and we find that these engines are not capable of doing the work that might be required. Now, could that be done without building these big machines?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. I think both things must be done. I think we have gone so far in this development that we must carry on research work, both pure and applied in laboratories and at the same time, you must get your emperic information from actual flight; I think the two go hand in hand, and it would seem to me we have the material available. There is still left the Macon and the Los Angeles, and I think a conservative policy of experimentation with that, while research work was going on, in places like the Akron Airship Institute, and the other aeronautical centers, the National Advisory Committee for aeronautics, I think the combination of those two steps would probably lead us finally to some safe road.

Representative DELANEY. Now, you know we laid the Los Angeles up for one reason, and that was the reason of economy. Now, could you suggest to us what use of the Los Angeles could be made; what use we could make of the Los Angeles for the purpose of experimentation instead of having her lying in the hangar at Lakehurst?

Mr. GUGGENHEIM. These are two distinct questions. As a matter of economy, I certainly hold no brief for continuing experimental work and operation when the country needs to conserve its financial resources. I think that is something that must be balanced in the general program, if there is any money available for aeronautical development, and I certainly think our country must continue to make available funds for that purpose. A conservative policy would

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