Mr. LAUTERSTEIN. Let me try to put it this way: We have been very much against the establishment of what we call divisional organizations. We recognize the fact that certain men in certain fields of the war are desirous of forming social organizations to perpetuate their friendships, but we do feel that out of this war, as out of every previous war, will come one or two and, with the present number of people involved, perhaps, three, really representative organizations of the veterans of this war.

It was because of the desire to escape division that members of the merchant marine were included. It has been very interesting to see the response of our membership, which is mostly composed of veterans actually, to the fact that they felt they should be included by affirmative vote.

We have tried to include every legitimate branch of the armed forces as far as representation before the Veterans' Administration is concerned. I think that we would agree with the President when he said that he thought a man of this war would like to have a man of this war represent him. And it is more natural, I think, that those of us who are young and who were through this together would have a more personal comprehension of the problem.

Senator KILGORE. I understand. I am not arguing with you about your own organization, but I am just giving you one of the problems the Government faces.

I well remember one case in the Veterans' Administration down here in which the soldier involved belonged to three organizations and he asked me to help him with his appeal, and when I got down before the appeals board, I found appeal representatives of the other three organizations in there, and we had to go out and go into a huddle and arrange a code of signals so that we could work together. Mr. LAUTERSTEIN. I think a veteran should be able to decide which one he wanted in advance rather than discover that they were foisted off on them.

Senator KILGORE. Each organization sincerely wants to help its veterans, its membership, and if he belongs to three organizations, all three of them sincerely want to help the membership.

S. 110

STATEMENT OF GILBERT A. HARRISON, AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE

(Witness sworn.)

Mr. HARRISON. I do not think you would have any trouble persuading us that there ought to be fewer veterans organizations.

We have taken the approach that I think is all-inclusive, and we are quite convinced that the veteran, perhaps, would be better off and the problem of Government would not be as great in Veterans' Administration if every organization with a special interest or special background were not asking for representation.

Senator KILGORE. Or a joint committee of some kind, if they could get that.

You understand I am not criticizing a single one of the organizations or their purposes, but I am looking at the thing from General Bradley's appeals board viewpoint, and other things.

Then sometimes you must realize that we, in Congress, get organizations representing the same group of people coming from opposing sides, based upon who was present at the meeting when the resolution was passed.

I think we have that picture.

Are there any questions, Senator Stanfill?

Senator STANFILL. Do you have a copy of your charter and bylaws? Mr. LAUTERSTEIN. I think it might be well to insert the New York charter.

I would like to say with respect to the bylaws, although certain interim regulations exist, it has been our purpose, although there was a constitution in complete draft, which will be adopted in New York, to avoid foisting off a table of organization on the men until enough were back here to have a true representational voice, because we have many men overseas.

Senator KILGORE. What does your membership consist of?

Mr. LAUTERSTEIN. The membership now is 33,000 members. It is growing at an arithmetic ratio at the rate of 3,000 a week. I will submit this.

Senator KILGORE. It may be marked as an exhibit.

(The charter referred to is marked "Exhibit K" for the files.)

S. 1939

THE MILITARY ORDER OF THE PURPLE HEART

STATEMENT OF COL. FRANK HALEY

(Witness sworn.)

Colonel HALEY. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am appearing here in behalf of S. 1939, a bill which was introduced into the United States Senate by Senator Shipstead, of Minnesota, who definitely intended and desired to appear before this committee at this hearing. Unfortunately, Senator Shipstead is out in Minnesota, and I had a telegram from him that he expected to be back last night or early this morning. However, as usual, I presume the trains were late and he did not get here.

We also expected to have Congressman Peterson of Florida, who introduced a similar bill in the House of Representatives, to appear before this committee, but he is also absent from the city and will not be back for another week or 10 days.

So I am left alone holding the bag before this committee.

I am the national legislative chairman of the Military Order of the Purple Heart. No doubt this committee is familiar with the fact that on two former occasions a similar bill known as the Military Order of the Purple Heart charter bill was passed unanimously by both Houses of Congress, two separate Congresses, and was on both occasions vetoed by the then President of the United States.

Last year during the last Congress, we again introduced the bill on which no action has been taken, for the simple reason we were informed that no action could or would be taken by the Senate committee during the war. So we now have introduced this new bill with the request or the suggestion that this charter bill be given a fair consideration by both the United States Senate and the House of Representatives.

While the organization, which I represent, and which is composed of men having, either through fortune or misfortune of war, whichever way you want to look at it, made sacrifices that no other group of veterans have made in that they have in defense of our flag, in defense of our country, and its institution, shed their blood on battlefields, aboard ship, or in the air, in the defense of their country, we feel that we are a group of veterans that, while we by no means consider ourselves above other veterans, it is, as stated by the fortunes or the misfortunes of war that we, nevertheless, are and we believe feel that we are and actually believe we are considered a sort of a group in itself, in that we are actually blood brothers.

Our reasons for desiring this bill are to have this bill favorably considered by your committee and passed by the Senate, by having a congressional charter we will be given a greater ratio of recognition than we are enjoying at the present.

While it is true we have every recognition from the Federal Government, the Veterans Administration, the Congress, the War and Navy Departments, the United States civil service, and all of the other governmental bureaus and agencies, nevetheless, there are times when things crop up when we find somebody will say, "Well, you do not have a congressional charter. Consequently you cannot be considered as a bonafide veteran organization.'

I want to ask any man or woman who makes such statements if a group of veterans that shed their blood, and actually sacrificed something that no other veteran sacrificed, if such group is not a bona fide veteran organization, then I would like to know what they are and how they should be considered.

There are times, as I stated, when things will crop up, and I want to refer to one incident that happened in Milwaukee only recently within the past month, or less than a month, where they have a veterans memorial corporation, a veterans council, and this corporation is endeavoring to devise ways and means to select some appropriate memorial for veterans of World War 2. Whether that memorial will take the shape of a large building to be used that would house various organizations or not, has not as yet been determined, but the chances are that that is all probability is the kind of memorial that will be erected.

At a very recent meeting of this council and this memorial corporation, in which the Military Order of the Purple Heart has representation, a representative of another large veterans organization raised the question what organizations should be given the privilege of participating in this, in the event that such building would be erected as a memorial.

It held that only veteran organizations that were considered as bona fide veteran organizations should be granted such privilege.

The question was then asked of him what he considered a bona fide organization. He immediately stated, "Only those that hold a congressional charter."

Senator KILGORE. What organization was that?

Colonel HALEY. Well, it was the representative of the American Legion of which I have been an active member for over 20 years. That is the representative who raised this question.

Senator KILGORE. The point I am getting at is this, there is one of the things that has deterred this committee from granting charters,

the frequent abuse that we have run into of charter privileges by chartered organizations in endeavoring to exclude others who should properly be in these things. A world war memorial, be it World War No. 1 or No. 2 is a memorial to all, not a memorial to organizations, but a memorial to the individuals and, therefore, the refusal of the use of that unless a corporate charter has been granted, to any organization, is transgressing the purpose of that war memorial. Colonel HALEY. That is right.

Senator KILGORE. That is, probably the reason for the flood of corporate charters. Understand, I am not objecting to the charter of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, because I certainly agree with you our wounded should be recognized and must be appropriately recognized, but if we keep on, with these corporate charters, congressional charters, as we have been going, we will simply get so many organizations in this country that there will not be bookkeeping space enough in any office in Washington to keep track of them. Do you get the point?

Colonel HALEY. I appreciate the fact.

Senator STANFILL. Upon what ground did the President veto your organization on the two different occasions?

Colonel HALEY. The first time the bill was vetoed was at the recommendation of General MacArthur, who, at that time, was Chief of Staff and Acting Secretary of War. That was in 1932. When that bill, which had passed unanimously both Houses of Congress, reached the Congress, of course, as usual it was referred to the War Department. At that time, the Purple Heart decoration was only and exclusively an Army decoration, and it was not until 1942 that it was, by Presidential proclamation, brought into all of the branches of the service, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.

Senator STANFILL. When was it vetoed the second time?

Colonel HALEY. That was either 2 or 3 years later. I believe in 1934 or 1935.

Of course, the second veto message did not deviate one iota from the first one.

Senator KILGORE. There are two or three things in the bill I would like to ask about, Colonel.

There is one here on page 6, lines 20, 21; I question the words

to adopt, and have the exclusive right to manufacture and use such emblems and badges as may be deemed necessary in the fulfillment of the purposes of the corporation.

I believe we are running counter to the patent laws of the country, or the laws on copyright, because in the adoption of something that might have been copyrighted by somebody else, we would be granting to an organization the right to take somebody's copyright, and not only that, but have the exclusive right to manufacture it.

Any corporation can copyright its own badges, but they must be their own design, and they can thereby get the exclusive right for the manufacture and sale of that particular emblem, badge, insignia, or seal or whatever it is, but to give the right to someone else makes the difficulty. You do not have to grant that right. That is granted by the patent laws. So that the clause itself, unless it does transgress the patent laws, would be of no effect, because the right would go automatically to the corporation anyway.

Colonel HALEY. I believe that you will find that in the charter of other veterans organizations. And I refer in particular to the charter of the DAV of which I was an active member also, at the time that charter was granted, and I am sure that this very clause appears in that, because it was conceded that if you wanted a lapel button, a ring, or any other sort of an emblem, in the form of jewelry, that you should have the right yourself, that is, the organization should have the right to specifically decide. If it would be found, of course, that someone had made such design, some such piece of jewelry and copyrighted it, we could not do anything about it, but unless we were protected to that extent, then everybody and anybody, any sharpshooter in the country, could step out and manufacture some jewelry or lapel bars or anything else, with the insignia of the Military Order of the Purple Heart on it and we could not do anything about it.

Senator KILGORE. I know that the lapel buttons of the VFW and the AVA and the American Legion are protected by copyright owned by the national organizations.

Section 8, under DAV states that the corporation in State and local subdivisions shall have the sole and exclusive right to have and to use in carrying out its purpose the name of the Disabled Veterans of the World War. There is nothing in there about copyrights on DAV or badges or insignia, because it is not necessary.

Colonel HALEY. Nothing about the emblems. That is my error. Senator KILGORE. It is not necessary. I did not think that the Judiciary Committee had ever O. K.'d a section like that.

Then you have something else in here, and while it has been done in the past in two or three instances, I do not think it is good law and I do not think it is necessary; I refer to section 6, which states:

Said corporation may and shall acquire all of the assets of the existing national organization known as the Military Order of the Purple Heart upon discharging or satisfactorily providing for the payment or discharge of all its liabilities.

I think that is a necessary corporate function anyway and it is best done by the order through its associated groups making a contract with the corporation.

Colonel HALEY. Well, I would say, incidentally, that this bill is practically copied from earlier bills that were introduced and I would say that this section may be entirely superfluous, because it is the present and the existing national organization known as the Military Order of the Purple Heart that is asking for this charter. Senator KILGORE. But for the Congress

Colonel HALEY. So this bill, this section would be superfluous. Senator KILGORE. Of the United States to first say that you shall buy that stuff, and also, say to them that they shall sell it to you, I think in doing that we are transgressing our rights as Congressmen; that is, as Members of the Congress, when we say you must do this and this must be the price.

It is just like going to any private corporation and saying, "You have to sell your assets to this corporation for this price.'

I just do not think it is good law.

Colonel HALEY. I fully agree with you, Mr. Chairman, and I just want to make this observation in saying this, it is my personal opinion, and my personal idea, because I have had no instructions, no mandate from the national organization to make this statement

Senator KILGORE. I do not want to commit you to anything. What I was doing was calling attention to a couple of sections there