Can

other organizations, and that their object was to influence legislation, I believe. you state whether the standing of the men of his organization is any higher than that of the men generally in traveling men's associations?-A. I can not, sir.

Q. You have no opinion on the subject?-A. None whatever, except such opinion as I have gained from reading Mr. Dowe's testimony.

Q. What is that?-A. Well, if you please, I believe I would rather not state it. Q. (By Mr. FARQUHAR.) Could you now state to the commission how many organizations of traveling men there are in this country; well-recognized organizations? (No response.)

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Put down the membership as far as you can.-A. I do not know that I could, sir. My own organization-the one with which I am connectedhas a membership of approximately 15,000. There is another organization at Utica that has, according to my best information, about 2,000. There is another

Q. (Interrupting.) The Utica one is a good deal of an insurance organization?—A. As I understand it, it is exclusively accident insurance; not general insurance, but accident.

Q. (By Mr. PHILLIPS.) Do you know the name of it?-A. My recollection is that it is The Commercial Travelers' Mutual Benefit Association; it seems to me that is the title. I know the headquarters are at Utica. There is another in Iowa, known as the Iowa State. The membership of that, I believe, is about 11,000. Then there are a number of other smaller organizations. There is one in Kansas or Nebraska; one or two in Illinois. There is the Western Commercial Travelers' Association of Missouri; that is a life insurance organization; and a number of others, smaller.

TRAVELERS' PROTECTIVE ASSOCIATION.

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Is there not one that has a membership of about 30,000?— A. None that I know of. Now, the purposes for which these various associations are organized are by no means identical. I know of but one national organization, and that is the Travelers' Protective Association of America, with which I am connected. I say that it is the only national association, because we have State organizations. We have first the national association; then we have what are known as State divisions, organized in 30 States, and then the local posts, as we know them. Each State has one or more posts, and the national organization is made up of the members from the several States.

Q. (By Mr. RATCHFORD.) Do I understand you to state that your organization is incorporated under the laws of New York?-A. Missouri.

Q. How long have you been incorporated?-A. We incorporated June 7, 1890. Q. Do you find it advantageous to be so incorporated?—Â. Yes.

Q. Will you kindly explain the advantages of it?

The WITNESS. Of incorporation?

Mr. RATCHFORD. Yes.

A. The only advantage that I know of accruing from incorporation is the fact that it gives us an individuality-gives us standing that otherwise we could not have. Q. Is that all?-A. That is all.

Q. (By Mr. FARQUHAR.) Does your incorporation safeguard the funds of your association?-A. Naturally so. That is included in my answer.

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Can you state approximately the total number of traveling men in the United States?

Q(By Mr. RATCHFORD, interrupting.) Before we leave the question of incorporation. Do not the articles of incorportation make your organization liable in every case for the action of the members?-A. Yes.

Q. Have you experienced any trouble in that direction?-A. No, sir.

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Can you state approximately the number of traveling men in the United States?-A. I can not, sir. There are all sorts of estimates, none of which I regard as entirely reliable.

Q. Is Mr. Dowe's estimate of 360,000, I believe, correct?-A. That strikes me as being rather excessive; but there is no way of ascertaining with any degree of definiteness what the number is. I should say, from my general knowledge of the business, that from 200,000 to 250,000 would be a conservative estimate.

Q(By Mr. FARQUHAR.) The census report of 1890 shows less than 60,000 in the whole United States.-A. I notice that Mr. Dowe quotes from the census. I have not consulted the census figures. I should regard that as an extremely low figure. Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Is your organization increasing in membership?-A. Yes. Q. Can you state what the membership was, say, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 1 year ago, and to-day?-A. Yes; I can give it to you from 1890 up to last year, if you wish it. Q. Well, do that, please.-A. Very well. Our membership June 1, 1891, was

1,139; the same date in 1892, 1,980; in 1893, 3,945; 1894, 7,052; 1895, 10,538; 1896, 11,090; 1897, 11,503; 1898, 13,150; 1899, 14,126.

Q. Now, are the members of your organization generally employed, and do they keep their dues well paid up at the present time?—A. Yes.

EFFECTS OF TRUSTS ON COMMERCIAL TRAVELERS.

Q. Then the industrial combinations are not affecting the traveling men with whom you are associated?

The WITNESS. You conclude that from the fact that we are growing?

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Growing; are able to keep the dues paid up and are employed.-A. Without taking the responsibility of making that statement, I suggest that might be proof to the contrary.

Q. State how it might be proof to the contrary.-A. It might be that traveling men, with the hope of strengthening themselves in their business, would go into the Travelers' Protective Association. Then you must remember that our membership is not composed exclusively of traveling men.

Q. No; you made a statement of that, and you said you thought about 80 per cent were traveling men.-A. If that were true with reference to the Travelers' Protective Association, we might conclude also, pursuing the same line of argument, that the recent formation of the Federation of Labor in the city of Montgomery, Ala., was proof that the laborers of that town were flourishing. They say they were organized because they were not flourishing, and with a view to protecting themselves, as I just suggested.

Q. Have you any knowledge that such motives are leading the people to go into your organization; that that, rather than real prosperity among them, is what brings them into the organization?-A. I can not say that I have any definite information in that regard; nothing that would be material.

Q. (By Mr. FARQUHAR). Have you any knowledge of your own members losing their positions through these combinations, and how many?-A. We have no statistics on that subject, sir. In fact, the only action that our organization has ever taken as an organization is embodied in the extract I have given you from our minutes. Q. In your observation as a traveling man, do you know of lay-offs or discharges of a greater number of traveling men than there were before these combinations occurred?-A. I have no personal knowledge along that line.

Q. (By Mr. JENKS.) Have you any information with reference to the discharge of traveling men-individual cases where their discharge was brought about appar ently by the formation of organizations?-A. There is but one instance that occurs to me at this moment, and that is of the combination between three baking-powder manufacturers, the Royal, Cleveland, and Price, I believe. I was told by a traveling man, who is now in the employ of the new company, that prior to the organization of the new company the three houses had 100 traveling men, and that immediately or very soon after the formation of the baking-powder combination, or whatever you choose to call it, 64 were discharged. They retained 36 men.

Q. That is one instance?-A. That is the only one that occurs to me. Of course, I have heard the general talk about the tobacco combination and others, perhaps, but this is the only definite statement that has ever been made to me on the subject.

Q. Have you had any information with reference to the lowering of the wages of traveling men by the combinations, owing to the fact that perhaps having more nearly a monopoly of the product, they did not require men of quite so high a degree of skill as salesmen?-A. Ño; possibly because we have made no investigation on that line. Perhaps I ought to state to the commission that we have made no investigation of this character at all. I am here to-day in obedience to an invitation from this commission and under instructions from my national board of directors simply to reply to any questions that may be put to me and to give you such information as I may have. As I have stated, we have never made any investigation along this line, our work having been directly in other lines, with reference to hotel accommodations, interchangeable mileage, and legislative matters bearing on other subjects. The bill just now pending in Congress, by the way, for the creation of a new office, that of secretary of commerce, originated with the Travelers' Protective Association.

Q. Are you, yourself, of the opinion that this subject is one of such significance for your organization that it would care to make any investigation among its own members with reference to the matter, and report to the commission?-A. I think I can say with perfect safety that the Travelers' Protective Association would not only be willing but glad to do anything in that line that it could, and assist in the work. Our chief ambition has been, and is to-day, to count for something in the commercial world. We want the Travelers' Protective Association to be known first of all as a

reliable organization of conservative business men. For that reason we have been criticised in some quarters because we have declined to make as much noise as our membership and influence entitled us to. We have sought to obtain our desires in certain lines by appealing to men's reason and sense of justice rather than to frighten them by beating drums and blowing horns. If it is the desire of the commission that we take up that work, I should feel safe in saying that our board of directors, or the association which meets in annual convention in New Orleans on the 22d of May, would be willing to render any assistance of that kind that it could.

Q. I feel very sure that the commission would be glad to have me ask you to take that matter up and get such information as you can that you know is trustworthy, and send it to the commission as soon as you can report.-A. Our national board of directors is the governing body of our organization. I am here under their instructions. It might be better to take that matter up with the national convention. However, that would be a matter of detail that we could dispose of.

Mr. PHILLIPS. If your board will take it up and so report.

The WITNESS. Now, gentlemen, I want you to understand clearly what we are. We were organized for the purpose indicated in our constitution, and we have tried zealously to have our actions conform to the spirit of the law under which we exist. We have been repeatedly importuned to join hands with other organizations and with individuals, with a view to coercing railroad companies, and so on. We have persistently refused to do anything of that kind.

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) Have you taken any action on the antiscalper ticketbrokerage question, on either side?-A. That matter came up for consideration at our annual convention at Nashville in 1897. I have forgotten just what the character of the action was, but my impression is that there was a resolution introduced condemning the proposed legislation, and that that resolution passed. I would not be positive in reference to that. I think, however, that there will be some difficulty in ascertaining just what the sentiment of our membership is on that subject. We are divided, of course, as other organizations are. I do not recollect just what action was taken at that time. I was going to say, by way of illustration, that we have won interchangeable mileage. Instead of making and passing resolutions condemning railroads and having them published in the papers, we have a regularly organized railroad committee-national, State, and local. All of our work of that character has been done through our national committee. By pursuing a straightforward, honorable, conservative, and reasonable method we have succeeded in securing interchangeable mileage, after about 6 or 7 years' work, over something more than 78,000 miles of railway. That includes the Western, the Central, and Southwestern Passenger Associations' territory. We very frequently get letters, scathing letters, condemning us because we do not howl after the Southeastern Passenger Association. We are continually at work reasoning with them, seeking to get them to concede what we think is a reasonable request, and, by the way, what I think they regard now as a reasonable request; but we have thought proper to pursue conservative and reasonable methods, believing that men can be reached in that way very much more easily than by howling.

Q. (By Mr. JENKS.) You will, then, be kind enough to take this matter up with your board of directors and see if you can make some report to the commission as soon as you have investigated thoroughly the sentiment among your members.-A. I will do so, sir. If the commission will kindly indicate by a series of questions, if it is practicable, just about what you would like, I think I could say with perfect confidence that the board of directors will be glad to take the matter up and make whatever investigation they can.

Mr. PHILLIPS. The questions will be furnished you for doing it.

The WITNESS. Thank you, sir. I think I can say that the board will be entirely willing to do that.

FEELING OF TRAVELING MEN TOWARD TRUSTS.

Q. (By Mr. JENKS). May I ask further whether from your personal association with traveling men you have been able to form any opinion as to the general sentiment on this question of industrial combinations; as to whether on the whole they have been an evil for the country, or otherwise?-A. I believe that they are almost unanimously of opinion that the formation of trade combinations, by whatever name they may be called, is inimical not only to the interests of traveling men, but to the entire interest of the country. Not every man with whom I come in contact has a clearly defined idea as to what might be the outcome, but there is that indefinite, vague sentiment of fear that something dreadful may happen. If you have ever seen a horse that was hoodwinked-a locomotive comes near him and you will see

that tremor that comes over him, indicating a fear of something, he knows not what. I have seen it repeatedly. That comes nearer to describing the general sentiment of traveling men on this subject than any figure or illustration I recall.

Q. You do not think, then, they have clearly defined reasons in their own minds for their fear?-A. Not as a general rule. I do not believe, to illustrate, that the action of the Travelers' Protective Association in tabling those resolutions which I have read, indicates the sentiment of the Travelers' Protective Association. I believe if you were to take every delegate who was in that hall at the time-there were something like 205 delegates at the convention; I do not know just how many were in the hall when this matter was considered-I do not believe if you should take each one of these men and ask him whether he believes trade combinations are beneficial or otherwise, that he would hesitate to say they are not.

Q. (By Mr. KENNEDY.) And would not be able to give a reason for his fear?—A. Possibly so; that is frequently the case.

Q. (By Mr. JENKS.) When there are reasons given, what are the main reasons suggested?-A. That they result first in depriving men—traveling men—of their means of support; that where they fail to deprive men of their means of support, they reduce them to such a state of uncertainty that they do not know one day whether they are going to have employment the next. They become more and more helpless in the hands of the strong man, and the character of the traveling men as a whole is degraded.

Q. What is the reply that they make to the usual argument on the other side that this discharge of traveling men is simply a lessening of the cost of production to the consumers, and is to be considered only a natural and normal step in the evolution of business; that the whole process is something of the same character as that which follows when a new machine is introduced-an invention? That is common argument that we hear frequently.-A. I do not know that I have ever heard any expression of opinion along that line, except in so far as it relates to a reduction of the cost to the consumer. I have never found a traveling man yet who believes that there is anything in that argument at all, for the very good reason that no reductions are ever heard of as a direct result of the reduction in the number of traveling men. Traveling men are usually pretty fair judges of human nature, and they know it is contrary to man's nature to make reductions in his wares, merely because there has been a reduction in the cost price to him.

Q. On the other hand, have you any opinion with reference to the effect of these organizations upon the prices of the product, as to whether they have really, as a matter of fact, increased or lowered the prices of the product?-A. I have made some little inquiry from time to time, and my opinion is that there is no reduction. Take the baking powder illustration, for example. Within the last week I have inquired of one reliable retail dealer asking him whether there had been any reduction in the price of baking powder to him. He replied "no." I asked him if he had made any reduction in the retail price. He had not. So for the last 12 months—at least since the organization of that company-I do not think there has been anything that would warrant the conclusion that that combination had brought about a reduction in price.

Q. (By Mr. FARQUHAR.) In this baking-powder case you said that 64 out of 100 had lost their positions as traveling men. Do you think it would be good business for this consolidation to retain those 64 men in their employ after they had made the consolidation?-A. I do not.

Q. You think that the discharge or displacement of those 64 men might be accounted for on purely business grounds?-A. Easily.

Q. Do you not think, as you have answered partially before, that this displacement of labor in combinations is very much in the line of a new mechanical invention, such as the linotype machine among printers, where 1 machine does the work of 3 men, and 2 have got to go to the street?-A. No.

Q. What is the difference between the two?-A. The difference is that 1 man under the new order of things does not do the work of 3 men. Where 1 man is substituted for 3, the work that the 2 men did goes practically undone, except as it is done in other ways. Improved mechanical appliances can not talk. The linotype machine can not say to some other machine-and I believe there are a number of these typesetting machines in existence-"Why should there be 5 of us manufactured? It is a prodigal waste of material. Let us combine; let there be 1 machine; let it be the linotype." While they do work an improvement, it is not at the expense of their competitors. On the other hand, a combination between manufacturers or coal miners-operators, I believe they are called-is a combination between human intelligences. They can put their heads together and figure on a reduction in the cost of production, we will say. One of

them will suggest, it saves us the wages of a thousand men; the others rub their hands. The machine does not do that. That is just the difference, as I see it. It is a machine more in the nature of a monopoly of something that is absolutely necessary to sustaining life. You have not asked me for my individual opinion, and yet I find it a very difficult matter to separate the official from the individual. So far as I am personally concerned, I do not see any way to avoid the formation of trade combinations; it seems to me the operation of a hard law; no way to get around it— I mean the trade combination per se. I believe that the trade combination is nothing in the world but one of a numerous brood of children of a common parent. Take my own case, for instance. I am employed by a New York schoolbook publishing house, an independent concern. While they are not exactly monarchs of all they survey, they pursue their own course in transacting their business, subject to the dictates of no one. If they were to notify me to-morrow that they had decided to go into a combination of schoolbook men; that the numerous houses in the United States were going to combine and that it would be necessary for them to dispense with my services, I should say, "I regret that, because I am especially fitted for that work if I am especially fitted for anything; the nearly 20 years of my life that I have given to that has unfitted me for anything else, and it will be a grievous burden to me and my family to be thrown out of employment in this line; but I recognize that it is your right to do that if you care to, and I will not complain." I don't think I would approach a member of the lower house in the general assembly of Alabama for his vote on a bill that I knew would prevent it, because I should say that they were doing nothing more nor less than they had a perfect right to do under our system. That may account for the fact that I am not a very rabid antitrust man, using the term in the sense we ordinarily use it in.

REMEDY FOR THE EVILS OF TRUSTS.

Q. (By Mr. JENKS.) I was about to ask earlier if you had any remedies to suggest for what you have been speaking of. I think you have practically covered that. You think there is practically no remedy for what evil there may be that it will remedy itself if it is remedied at all?-A. No; not just that.

Q. What?-A. Not just that. I do not believe that any legislation in which the nation can indulge is going to remedy the trouble of which we complain. I think it is treating scrofula by putting on poultices. I believe that there is one evil which is the parent of every one of the lesser evils, and that is the question of taxation; I think taxation controls it. I beg the pardon of the commission for saying that it seems to me to be rather inconsistent for the nation to complain of its citizens for combining their wealth when it does not complain at the way they get their wealth. I believe that the monopoly of natural opportunities is at the bottom of every one of these ills.

Q. And to get to the remedy would be-?-A. (Interrupting.) To go to the foundation; go to the foundation. When we say to a number of people of the United States, "It is perfectly proper for you to own and to monopolize the coal mines, the gold mines, the silver and copper mines, the land and waterways and ports," I do not see how we can go to them and complain that they organize trusts. I think that the trust, as we usually use that word, is simply a child, one of the numerous children of a common parent.

Q (By Mr. FARQUHAR.) So that the commonwealth itself has encouraged this child? A. Yes.

Q. And the legislation-special and class legislation, you mean-has been that which gave it the power?-A. Yes; unquestionably so.

Q (By Mr. JENKS.) You have not technically defined your remedy. Is it the single tax on land values?-A. It is the single tax.

Q. On land values?-A. The single tax on land values. I would not go to the extent of saying that that would be a specific, but I believe that would go very far toward solving a number of questions that trouble us very greatly, like corruption in office, the buying and selling of votes, both of the individuals and of the representatives, if such a thing exists, and so on.

SITUATION OF DISCHARGED TRAVELERS.

Q. There was one question further that I wanted to ask on matters of fact. That was with reference to the discharge of employees, traveling men and others, when these combinations are formed. Have you any information with reference to the reemployment of men who have been discharged, we will say, as commercial travelers, by the organization in other capacities?-A. No. It is quite likely that a