Mr. STILWELL. If the bill was passed and the Interstate Commerce Commission was deprived of minimum passenger fare regulation, do you think that it would perhaps offer some safeguard to write in the provisions of Reed-Bulwinkle which you now have and which a previous witness testified about? Mr. THOMPSON. Well, I certainly feel that we need the provisions of Reed-Bulwinkle to prevent the ridiculous result that I attempted to illustrate in the Montreal-New York situation. I am certain there are hundreds of them around the country. But in addition to Reed-Bulwinkle we certainly need, in order to achieve an orderly transportation system and good service to the public, this continued power of the Interstate Commerce Commission to control minimum rates or establish minimum rates-floors, if you will-if, as, and when required. Now, that power has been exercised by the Commission very sparingly, but the mere existence of the power has promoted stability in service. The public has benefited I think very clearly in the BostonNew York situation. Before Federal regulation there were 12 or 14 buslines. The fare got down to $1.50. Several fell by the wayside. Nobody could afford to run at 9 or 10 o'clock in the morning. They all had to operate at the time when the peak traffic load occurred. So you had a parade of a dozen buses going down the highway at 8 o'clock in the morning but at 10 o'clock none. Today if you are in Boston and want to get to New York you have your choice of service actually more frequently than hourly. It gets down at certain times of the day to half-hour departures. Senator THURMOND. The distinguished Senator from Vermont, the home State of Mr. Thompson, I believe has a question he would like to propound. Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman, I have no question. I am not a member of the subcommittee. Mr. Thompson has been a longtime friend of mine. He is a very able gentleman, and I am sure that his testimony will be well worthy of serious consideration by the subcommittee as it will be I am sure by the members of the full committee. I am delighted to see Mr. Thompson here this morning. Sorry I could not be here earlier. Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator THURMOND. Do you have any more questions, Senator Cannon? Senator CANNON. No more questions. Senator THURMOND. Mr. Thompson, I wish to thank you and Mr. Humphrey and Mr. Corber for your appearance here and for the contribution you have made to this hearing. Mr. CORBER. Mr. Chairman, could I call your attention to the fact that there are appendixes attached to two of these statements, and I would like to request, sir, that they be incorporated in the record along with the statements. Senator THURMOND. Without objection, the appendixes to the statements will be incorporated in the record along with the statement, following the statement. Mr. CORBER. Thank you, sir. 99-564-64-pt. 1- 36 Senator THURMOND. Our next and last witness today is Mr. Howard Johnson, secretary and operations manager, Nelson Trucking Co., Burket, Ind., on behalf of Midwest Livestock Carriers Association. Senator Hartke regrets he had to go to another committee meeting. I am sure he would like to be here while you testify since you are from his home State. We are glad to have you. Mr. Ide, you are president of the Midwest Livestock Carriers Association? STATEMENT OF HOWARD JOHNSON, SECRETARY AND TREASURER, NELSON TRUCKING CO., ON BEHALF OF MIDWEST LIVESTOCK CARRIERS ASSOCIATION Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ide was unable to attend today. I am Howard Johnson. Senator THURMOND. Is Mr. Ide going to be here at all? Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Ide is unable to be here. Senator THURMOND. Are you going to present his statement? Mr. JOHNSON. I am Howard Johnson, secretary-treasurer of the Midwest Livestock Carriers Association and secretary and operations manager, Nelson Trucking Co., Inc., Burket, Ind. We are here representing ourselves and some 60 other truck operators who in March of this year got together and formed an organization which we call the Midwest Livestock Carriers Association. I would like to submit a list of these carriers. They are from Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. I have the list. If you would like to incorporate it into the record, that is all right, or at least here is a list of the carriers. (The list of carriers follows:) MIDWEST LIVESTOCK CARRIERS ASSOCIATION Formed March 13, 1963 OFFICERS President: James Ide II., Ide Trucking Co., Inc., Logansport, Ind. Vice President: Tomas Temperly, Temperly Trucking Co., Inc., Indianapolis, Ind. Secretary-Theasurer: Howard B. Johnson, Nelson Trucking, Inc., Burket, Ind. DIRECTORS Robert S. Gotwals, 439 North Main St., Souderton, Pa. Lyndal Arnold, Gibson City, Ill. Gene Finchum, Indianapolis, Ind. Richard Dickerhoff, Mentone, Ind. FINANCE COMMITTEE Denzel Nelson, Burket, Ind. George Reichert, Bourbon, Ind. Roscoe Hufford, Lake Cicott, Ind. ATTORNEYS William J. Guenther, Indianapolis, Ind. MEMBERS Ecker Truck Service, Bourbon, Ind. Everly, Inc., Bourbon, Ind. Geo. Reichert Livestock Hauling, Bourbon, Ind. Ide Trucking Co., Inc., Logansport, Ind. De Kock Trucking Co., Demotte, Ind. Gochenour Trucking Co., Bourbon, Ind. Johnny's Marathon & Trucking Co., North Manchester, Ind. Jerry Garber Trucking Co., North Manchester, Ind. Rayburn Trucking Co., Muncie, Ind. McCord Trucking Co. Arnold Trucking Co., Gibson City, Ill. Van Zuiden Bros., Albany, Ill. Kenneth Trimble, Mackinaw, Ill. Dale Schumacher, La Rose, Ill. Robert Klopp, Emden, Ill. Robert S. Gotwals, Souderton, Pa. Curtis Trucking Co., Troy, Ohio Decker Trucking, Milford, Ill. Ralph Colglazier, Danville, Ill. O. P. Marvin, Sullivan, Ill. James Lucas, Farmerville, Ill. Coil Livestock Trucking, Washington, C. H. Bauman Trucking, Napoleon, Ohio Rothschild Trucking, Stony Ridge, Ohio Geiger Transportation, Archbold, Ohio Geiger Bros., Payne, Ohio Paul Jollif, Forest, Ohio Tom Pugh, Cleveland, Ohio Kenneth Pry, Wellington, Ohio Mr. JOHNSON. For the most part, these carriers are exempt truckdrivers of livestock. We are vigorously opposed to S. 1061 to remove the Interstate Commerce Commission's minimum rate power on bulk commodities and farm products. Even with the minimum-rate power, the Commission has been so liberal in approving low railroad rates on livestock that these truck carriers of livestock are finding it extremely difficult to make ends meet. Most of these carriers are already in very poor financial condition. If S. 1061 is passed, and the railroads are given a blank check to charge any low rates they choose, these truck operators and many more like them will be forced to fold up in a short order and give their trucks back to the banks and finance companies. We are not here pleading for a group of fly-by-night truck operators. The people on that list I have given you are decent, hard workingmen who have been in this business a long time. Some of them have been in business 20 or 25 years. It would seem very unfair to give the railroads a green light to arbitrarily ruin them. We read a lot about equality. There is nothing equal about letting big railroad corporations smash small businessmen and deprive them of an honest living. If you want equality then put us under the same regulations the railroads have. We would be most happy to be regulated. It has come to our attention in the past few years that we as unregulated carriers pay both higher insurance rates and higher interest rates than do regulated carriers. To us this can mean only two things. We are considered a poor insurance risk compared to regulated carriers due to lack of safety standards. We are also considered a poor financial risk because of our poor financial conditions. We believe it would be in the national interest, as well as to our interest, to have all interstate shipments regulated by ICC, whether it be bulk commodities, agricultural products, or what have you. By doing so the entire transportation industry and the general public as well would be benefitted both from a safety and an economic standpoint. I have deliberately kept this statement as brief as possible because I did not want to go into a lot of detail that might not be of interest to you. At the same time there is a great deal more we could tell you and we would be most happy to answer your questions. Thank you. Senator THURMOND. Mr. Johnson, what is the financial condition of livestock carriers now? Mr. JOHNSON. At the present time and understand I am speaking basically for the carriers I am familiar with, that I have met with in the past, and I have known a good many of them for years-the bulk of them are in a very poor financial condition. A good many of them are operating in the red. In fact, their revenue, based on a dollar's worth of revenue, is costing $1.02, $1.03, and $1.04 per dollar's worth of revenue. Senator THURMOND. Senator Hartke wanted me to ask you that question. Senator Hartke also wants me to ask this question: Has there been any change in employment in livestock carriers recently? Mr. JOHNSON. Any change in employment? Yes; in fact, I would say this: Basically a good many of these operators are domiciled in small communities. Speaking for my own operation, we were possibly 2 or 3 years ago at this time carrying as many as 50 employees. Due to the low rates with which we have been forced to attempt to compete, we are down now at the present time to approximately 30 employees, and a good many other operators are not only faced with that same problem but it is a matter where within a year or two at the continued trend they will be out of business I am quite certain. Senator THURMOND. To what do you attribute that? Mr. JOHNSON. Inasmuch as the truckers have not been regulated, there is keen competition between livestock carriers. But here in the past roughly 3 to 4 years the rails have gone into a lot of points that the livestock hauler was hauling long distance and have given terrific rate reductions particularly to east coast points, and the boys who were hauling those commodities back 3 and 4 years ago at a rate which they could live with today are unable to do it simply because of the rate factor. Senator THURMOND. Now, another question Senator Hartke wanted me to ask you is this: Has there been any change in rates in your field in the past 4 years? Mr. JOHNSON. A tremendous change, in lowering of rates. In the past 3 to 4 years rates have decreased. By the same token, the men who operate these units have quite large investments. They have gone into specialized equipment, equipment that cost literally thousands of dollars. A good bit of that equipment today is sitting idle. Perhaps there has been more or less of a squeeze put on between the packer and the low railroad rates, and the packers insist to the trucker that he has to meet the given rail rate or they would have to use rail facilities. Speaking for the business which I am quite familiar with, 3 years ago we were operating as many as 11 diesel units with two men to the unit delivering live animals to the east coast. Today we have none. Senator THURMOND. I observe in your statement in paragraph 3 you say you are submitting a list of these carriers from Indiana and Illinois, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. You gave that to the reporter? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Senator THURMOND. That will be included in the record at that point. Do you have an extra copy of that? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I do. Senator THURMOND. Senator Cannon would like to have a copy if you would give it to him after the hearing. As I understand from you, you have a rather dim outlook for the livestock carriers whether this bill passes or not. Is that right? Mr. JOHNSON. Not necessarily. I think my theory is this: If this bill passes, I can see it would be oblivion for the exempt commodity hauler. I, in fact, would favor regulation, free entry. I am not opposed to and I do not want competition eliminated. This livestock hauling business covers a great many problems. In fact, a lot of the people in the smaller communities are dependent |