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Mr. VINSON. I considered the different bills. I would prefer that the bill would speak for itself. One thought contained therein is the comprehensive plan for study and the other was grants in aid and loans, not only to the States and other governmental units, but grants to industrial concerns seeking to eradicate the source of the pollution.

Mr. BOLTON. That is probably the reason it was referred to the Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee, is it not?

Mr. VINSON. Of course, I left it in blank.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the number of your bill?
Mr. Vinson. H. R. 12764. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hollister, whom do you wish to have heard next?

Mr. HOLLISTER. Number one is Mr. Charles W. Eliot, Executive Officer of the National Resources Committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eliot, we will hear from you at this time.




Mr. Eliot. "The National Resources Committee is very much interested in all of these efforts to control the pollution problem, and it, through its various' committees, and through its work for the Hast 2 years, has tried to present the problem for the consideration of this committee and other committees concerned. We have a water resources committee—subcommittee it should be called which represents most of the Federal agencies concerned with water problems. It grew out of the former Mississippi Valley Committee, which was headed by Morris L. Cook, now head of the Rural Electrification Administration.

In one of the reports of the committee, and its predecessors, the National Resources Board and the National Planning Board, this problem of pollution prevention and control played a very prominent part and it always has been presented as one of a number of related water problems. The committee stresses and wishes to emphasize at every opportunity the fact that pollution must be studied in relation to navigation, reclamation, reforestation, soil erosion, and a great many other related problems. We have an example of that, Mr. Chairman, in the case of the Ohio River, which is perhaps more fully developed for navigation than any other stream in the Mississippi Basin, and yet where the problem of pollution has now become a critical issue,

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made a thorough study of the municipalities along that river as to their sewage disposal ?

Mr. ELIOT. Our committee has not, Mr. Chairman, but we have started a coordinating action in the valley which we hope will result in such a study. As you probably know, the Public Health Service has operated a special station for such studies at Cincinnati for some years, and the Public Health Service men who are here today can tell you of the work. Our work has been confined to a preliminary report on the general pollution problem and methods of attack on a Nation-wide basis, and that report has been submitted and published, and I would like to leave it with the committee for the l'ecord.

Mr. ELIOT. A second point of view which the National Resources Committee has followed in all of its studies has been one of decentralization of activity. We have, in all cases, urged the States and regions concerned to try to get together and make out their own programs and their own proposals. The committee is on record as favoring the interstate compact procedure wherever it is applicable, and we believe it is applicable in this case on the Ohio River.

Last winter a report was submitted to the President entitled “Regional Factors in National Planning", which has been submitted, I believe, to this committee at other hearings, and which deals with various methods of organizing interstate cooperation for attack on not only pollution but on other related problems.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you also file a copy of that with the clerk of this committee?

Mr. ELIOT. I will file it, sir.

The committee is now engaged, at the suggestion of the President, in a drainage-basin study, which is outlined in this brief statement of three or four pages, under date of March 3, 1936, which I will submit for the record, if that is agreeable, sir. It describes this proposed study which is now in operation, bringing together there every anajor drainage basin in the country, a picture of its ultimate development, and a list of the projects, and of all plans for the aecomplishment of that objective. The President asked that this report be submitted to him before December 1. For this project, or this work, we have secured the cooperation of that group of interested citizens in the States in the Ohio Valley which have organized in the last few months, the Ohio Valley Regional Planning Commission, which consists of the representatives of the State planning boards of the various States concerned, plus the district chairman, who is assigned from the National Resources Committee, so we are engaged on a cooperative endeavor of finding out what the States and the region as a whole want, and we are trying to put that material together in a single document. (The statement referred to reads as follows:)


Washington, March 3. 1936.


In cooperation with State and regional planning boards, the National Resources Committee, through its Committee on Water Resources, proposes to make a national study of water use and control in major drainage basins,

The committee will endeavor to submit as clear a picture as possible of the "developed" or long-range plan for each important drainage basin and a pri(ority list of projects for the execution of that plan. The procedure and objectives for the study are outlined on the following pages. In order to complete this plan for submission to the President on December 1, 1936, it will be necessary to receive the reports on each drainage basin at the Washington office of this committee not later than October 1.

The assistance of all State planning boards is essential to the success of this program, and your cooperation is most earnestly requested.

FREDERIC A. DELANO, Vice Chairman.


Washington, March 3, 1936.



The National Resources Committee desires to submit to the President on December 1, 1936, a report on a study of drainage basin-water resources. this report it is proposed to cover the following three points with respect to each of the major drainage basins or other appropriate problem areas:

1. The outstanding problems of water use and control,

2. The broad outlines of a reasonable and integrated plan of development, and

3. The specific construction and study projects which, in the light of available information, are consistent with the broad plan.

The limited time and resources available for the preparation of this report emphasize the need for the close cooperation of State planning agencies with Federal bureaus and organizations concerned with water problems. The Water Resources Committee therefore proposes the following organization for the study :

1. Participation by State planning boards.-In order to provide working arrangements with State planning boards and to secure the views of State authorities, the committee proposes to assign 17 water consultants to work with State planning boards and regional planning commissions. These consultants will be responsible for the conduct of the field work necessary for the preparation of the water plan in groups of States, these groups being selected according to major drainage areas and convenience of operation, as shown on the attached map.

It is hoped that State planning boards will participate in three ways:

First, it is hoped that State planning boards will extend help in organizing the cooperation of local and State agencies logically interested. The water consultants will need the assistance of such agencies as State and local health departments, office of the State engineer, State department of conservation, etc., and each State Board may be of service by introducing the consultants to the appropriate officials and by arranging, insofar as possible, the work of its staff for cooperation with them in the conduct of this survey. Experience in connection with a similar survey now in process in the basin of the Red River of the North furnishes an example of what this committee hopes may be done in the national survey. In that area the State planning boards of Minnesota and of North and South Dakota have been cooperating with Federal, State, and local officials in a study which is being given general supervision by a consultant appointed by the Water Resources Committee. The respective State Boards initiated conferences leading to the present survey, and the splendid progress being realized will make possible the completion of a comprehensive report within 2 or 3 months from this date.

Second, it is hoped that the State planning boards, in addition to the general clerical and technical assistance rendered by their staffs, will be able to assign full-time technicians to this survey. These may be provided from the assistance furnished through W. P. A. sponsored Federal project no. 3, the Works Progress Administration project for staffing State planning boards. It is probable that one such technician (maximum salary $200) will be necessary in each State participating. Another technician (miximum salary $150) will be required in each of the 17 major areas to assist the water consultant in the area headquarter's office.

Third, it is hoped that the State planning board or other office concerned may be able to make available desk or office space for the water consultant and his assistants in the cities shown on the attached map.

2. Participation by Federal agencies. Through the membership of the Water Resources Committee cooperation and participation of Federal agencies is provided, as follows:

H. H. Barrows, Department of Geography, University of Chicago.
H. H. Bennett, Chief, Soil Conservation Service, Department of Agriculture.
Ira N. Gabrielson, Chief, Biological Survey, Department of Agriculture.
N. C. Grover, chief hydraulic engineer, Geological Survey.
Edward Hyatt, State engineer of California.
Maj. Gen. Edward M. Markham, Chief of Engineers.

John C. Page (representing the Commissioner of Reclamation), Chief of Engineering Division, Bureau of Reclamation.

Thorndike Saville, associate dean, College of Engineering, New York University.

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R. E. Tarbett, sanitary engineer, United States Public Health Service. Thomas R. Tate, director, National Power Survey, Federal Power Commission, Abel Wolman, chairman.

Sherman M. Woodward, chief water planning engineer, Tennessee Valley Authority.

Through a full-time director and assistant director in the Washington office, the water committee will outline and conduct the study. A special office coordinator set up under the director will gather all relevant data on various drainage basins, now available from Federal agencies, for the use of water consultants, and will later correlate the basin plans and projects lists reported by the various consultants. A regional coordinator will travel among the water consultants to assist them. The National Resources Committee will also provide special technical consultants where the water consultants require such assistance.

It is urgently requested that all State planning boards send to this office immediately any suggestions which may occur to them as to the scope and conduct of this survey. In view of the cooperative nature of the undertakings, this committee will very much appreciate speedy response to this request.

CHARLES W. ELIOT, 2D, Executive Officer.

(For the Chairman). That, I think, Mr. Chairman, gives you a picture of the general interest of the Resources Committee and the particular interests of the Resources Committee in this Ohio Valley.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it your judgment that there should be a separate unit for each major watershed !

Mr. Eliot. The committee has not taken any action on that, sir, and I am not in a position, of course, to speak for them without their having taken such action.

They have made an examination of the various ways of organizing for these cooperative problems.

The CHAIRMAN. In different streams, the source of pollution varies. For instance, in some sections it comes from coal mines. Principally, as I understand it, the pollution of the cities occurs in all of them, perhaps, by sewage. Now, on the upper Ohio here a few years ago they had a serious condition up there of sulphuric acid from the steel plants, the galvanizing plants. In other places it is oil-perhaps not so much on the rivers as it is in the coastal regions. All those things would require different methods of treatment, perhaps, and I thought that different rivers would require different methods.

Mr. Eliot. They certainly do, Mr. Chairman. The Surgeon General is here and knows much more about it than I do and can tell you exactly what the technical processes would have to be as far as they are known.

Mr. DONDERO. The extent of your investigation thus far has been to really gather the facts, factual information, but you have not gone far enough to describe a remedy?

Mr. Eliot. Exactly. Our function is to bring the various agencies concerned together. We are a fact-finding agency.

Mr. DONDERO. Have you gone into the question of the pollution of navigable water from oil refuse !

Mr. Eliot. Our special pollution committee, which has representatives of all these different agencies, has been into that subject, but, again, I would like to refer you to the experts that are here rather than try to answer the question myself.

The CHAIRMAN. The next witness, Ňr. Hollister, will be Mr. Hudson Biery.



Mr. BIERY. Mr. Chairman, I am an employee of the Cincinnati Street Railway. I am chairman of the committee on stream pollution of the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce, an agency that has had something to do with the preparation of these bills and in stimulating some interest in the community and action on them.

Alarmed by increasing danger from polluted water, a special committee was appointed in June 1935, for the purpose of attacking this problem. Holding that streams of the Ohio Valley were not intended to serve as sewers and that they should be restored to their proper use in the fields of health, conservation, commerce, and recreation, the committee adopted the following platform:

That it would promote legislation to control pollution of streams of the Ohio Valley; encourage the construction of disposal plants; conduct a general program of education, and coordinate, as far as possible, all local efforts to accomplish these ends. The committee has made material progress. Personnel includes approximately 50 engineers, lawyers, health experts, public officials, and representatives of various organizations particularly interested in this program.

A. subcommittee on research and planning was asked to investigate disposal plants now operating and plants under consideration; to collect detailed information for education of the committee and general information for publicity; to plan and direct the policies of the committee.

Another subcommittee on legislation was asked to investigate present laws of States regarding stream pollution; to draft model laws for States where needed; to study various State pacts, such as Boulder Dam, Colorado-Arkansas, New York-New Jersey; and to draft any Federal legislation that may seem desirable.

Another subcommittee on Federal Emergency Administration was asked to investigate the present policies at Washington with respect to the possibility of obtaining a Federal survey of the whole area or the Cincinnati area, or the possibility of establishing a Federal authority to deal with stream pollution. It was also asked to investigate the possibility of obtaining Federal funds of an amount larger than might ordinarily be granted if the Government should raise the stage of the Cincinnati pool above its present level.

Other subcommittees on contact, recreation, sanitation and health, expert headership, and publicity, are planned and will be appointed if and when needed.

The Barkely-Hollister bills seek to abate and control the pollution of streams through systematic, orderly planning by the States, with the cooperation of the Federal Government. We have assisted in the preparation of this legislation and enlist your support for its enactment at the present session, firm in the belief that reasonable legislation of this type is the proper way to solve this problem.

We refer to House bill 12103

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). House bill 12101; what is the Senate. nunber?

Mr. BIERY. The Senate number of House bill 12101 is Senate 4351.

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