Mr. JONES. My home is at Orange and my place of business is in Rapidan.

The CHAIRMAN. How many do you represent, or do you speak for yourself as well as others; if so, what others?

Mr. JONES. I speak for myself and others that are interested in the Rapidan area there.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is that Rapidan area that you speak of from Salem?

Mr. JONES. About 36 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is on the Rapidan River?

Mr. JONES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a tributary of the Rappahannock?
Mr. JONES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is Orange from Rapidan?

Mr. JONES. Six and one-half miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Will someone come around and point these places out?

Mr. BIRRELL. The Salem Church Dam site is here [indicating]. The CHAIRMAN. Where is the area that will be covered by the proposed reservoir?

Mr. BIRRELL. It is the shaded area in blue. This is the Rappahannock River with the town of Remington.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is Remington?

Mr. BIRRELL. Right here [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. How far is Remington from the flooded area of the reservoir, would you say?

Mr. BIRRELL. About 3 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Further up the stream?

Mr. BIRRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, where is Rapidan and where is that tributary? Mr. BIRRELL. This is the Rapidan River. This is the town of Rapidan.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is the town of Rapidan from the upper end of the proposed reservoir?

Mr. BIRRELL. I would say about 10 or 12 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. The Rapidan will be flooded for a distance up the river from its mouth of how far?

Mr. BIRRELL. I believe it is about 34 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. By river?

Mr. BIRRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What other streams will be flooded that enter the Rappahannock?

Mr. BIRRELL. There are no major streams. However, Mountain Run enters here, extends up into Culpeper.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is Culpeper?

Mr. BIRRELL. Culpeper is here.

The CHAIRMAN. Rapidan is where, did you say?

Mr. BIRRELL. Here.

The CHAIRMAN. How far are they from one another?

Mr. BIRRELL. Thirteen miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is Orange?

Mr. BIRRELL. Orange is here.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed now, Mr. Jones.

Mr. JONES. I concur in Mr. Williams' statement.

I would like to add that we do have very frequent floods on the upper reaches of the Rapidan and Rappahannock Rivers, and those floods do us a tremendous amount of damage, not only to the highways and farm lands, but also to industrial businesses and homes. In the Rapidan section we have quite often had industrial businesses to come in with the prospect of settling in that area, but when they see the possibility of floods, those industries usually settle somewhere else. We have at Rapidan and Remington the main line of the Southern, which is a double-track railway. We have good freight rates. have good water facilities there.

We

Those villages have great possibilities in the future of building up to, possibly, cities, provided we have protection. But as long as they are being heavily flooded, there is not much chance of industries settling in that area.

That is about the end of the statement I would like to make.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you feel that Remington and Rapidan should be protected from floods?

Mr. JONES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What efforts have your local people made to protect your property and areas from floods? Have you constructed any levees or dikes or floodwalls?

Mr. JONES. Our area is so located that dikes and floodwalls would be almost impossible.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the remedy, as you see it?

Mr. JONES. To have dams in the upper reaches of the basin to hold up some of the water in floodtime.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you aware that before the report was submitted the district engineer explored all the alternatives and recommended the one reservoir as being more economically justified than a series of reservoirs? That question arises in practically every case where a reservoir is proposed. In almost every case there are recommendations for substitute or smaller reservoirs. When we explore them we find it often takes more land to be overflowed for the series of reservoirs than it does for one.

Do you represent the landowners whose lands will be overflowed by the smaller dams? Do you speak for them in suggesting those dams for the protection of Rapidan and Remington?

Mr. JONES. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So Fredericksburg has made some effort to protect itself, and thus far you have not because your remedy is really dams?

Mr. JONES. I would like to state that we have quite frequent floods in our area and also for the Rappahannock Basin, which do considerable damage, which passed Fredericksburg without damage; because of their channel conditions there they can take a very heavy flow of water.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, you advocate dams and more dams?

Mr. JONES. I am in favor of curtailing the dam at Fredericksburg to the 200-foot level and to establish some flood control in the areas above there. I feel like we need protection there as well as Fredericksburg.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions by members of the committee?

If not, we are glad to have had your statement.

Your next witness, Mr. Smith.

Mr. SMITH. Senator Robert Button, of Culpeper, is our next witness. Br. Button just desires to make a very brief statement in confirmation of the previous statements made.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT BUTTON, A STATE SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Mr. BUTTON. My name is Robert Button.

The CHAIRMAN. Your place of residence?
Mr. BUTTON. Culpeper.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you a member of the bar?

Mr. BUTTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a State senator from Virginia?

Mr. BUTTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to have your statement.

Mr. BUTTON. I have nothing particularly to say. I am not an engineer. I cannot discuss the technical details. All I can do is ask mercy for these people in Culpeper and the people in the county of Farquier.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is Fauquier County? What county is the proposed reservoir to be located in?

Mr. BUTTON. One side is Spotsylvania, and the other side is Stafford. Culpeper County comes between those two rivers, the Rappahannock on one side and Rapidan on the other. Farquier County is affected on the east side down as far as Stafford.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything else?

Mr. BUTTON. There is only one thing. I do not know whether due consideration was given to the damages to farms by those creeks that are widened out. I happen to know many of those farms personally. Maybe not so much area would be taken up, but by putting a deep, wide creek it would possibly cut those farms completely in two and make those farms practically worthless for farming pur

poses.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not quite understand that. What do you' mean by "cutting them in two"?

Mr. BUTTON. When they are dammed up, you see, they get wide and deep in those little creeks permanently. They would not flood anything except the lowland adjacent thereto, but they may cut a man's farm entirely in two. The deep creek in between would so separate his land that it might be impractical for him to continue farming that land in the manner in which he is now farming it.

I do want to say that a great deal of that land which would be inundated is the best land we have in Fauquier and Culpeper Counties. The CHAIRMAN. How does it compare with the land below Salem Dam?

Mr. BUTTON. I do not know. I am not in position to speak too well on the land below the dam.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know the type of land that would be protected?

Mr. BUTTON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Whenever there is a reservoir or dam built, whether it is along the Tennessee River or any other river, it floods farms and the land above. Is not that true?

Mr. BUTTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So the situation for the area for which you speak is substantially the same situation that obtains wherever dams are constructed in similar terrains, similar areas, for the development of power or for the detention of floodwaters; is that not true?

Mr. BUTTON. I may be mistaken, but our understanding was that it was largely flood control and not a power project.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a combination or multiple-purpose dam. I think I am correct about that. You know, you have got to have a constant head for the development of power, and that is the first head of water, as I express it. But even the power part of it would require the submerging of land, although not as much as the flood part of it.

Mr. BUTTON. Mr. Williams, who has testified, was head of the public works of the Philippines for many years, and he has had a great deal of experience in this type of work. He advises me that practically all of the damage to the lands of Culpeper and Fauquier would be done away with if the dam was no more than 200 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. What type of land would be taken away with a 200-foot dam?

Mr. BUTTON. Largely forest land.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your statement.

Next witness.

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to note the presence of Mr. Norman C. Bailey, member of the legislature from Orange, Va., and Mr. Slaughter, member of the legislature from Culpeper County, both of whom merely desire to confirm the statements previously made. They do not care to make any additional statements in the interest of saving time.

I would now like to have Mr. R. W. Hogue, of Remington, testify.

STATEMENT OF R. W. HOGUE, REMINGTON, VA.

Mr. HOGUE. My name is R. W. Hogue.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HOGUE. I moved from Washington 5 years ago to become a producer of food. I moved to Kelly's Ford, which is 4 miles nearer the site of the dam than Remington.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a farmer?

Mr. HOGUE. I am a small-scale farmer.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you raise?

Mr. HOGUE. I have three immense victory gardens. I have had three immense victory gardens ever since the war. As long as the starvation in Europe continues, I hope to have them.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you live there before you started farming 5 years ago?

Mr. HOGUE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a farm where?

Mr. HOGUE. Four miles below Remington, right at Kelly's Ford. The CHAIRMAN. Now, the point you want to make is what?

Mr. HOGUE. The point I want to make is this: So far as my private interests are concerned, I reserve my residence in Washington, and I will inflict myself upon you Congressmen if this thing goes through and destroys my land. I would not put private interests above the public good of Fredericksburg or whatever advantages may accrue to the farmers and others, particularly through cheap power. We are destitute in large parts of our section for power. Farms are without electricity all over the area. But for the REA there would be thousands more without it.

The town of Remington, where I purchase things that I do not raise, was flooded in 1942. The water was 3 feet in the post office. Homes were flooded. People were driven out of homes. The basements of stores were flooded. Incalculable damage was done in that section. On my place alone it was estimated that over a thousand bushels of corn from lowlands above me was stranded. A steel bridge at Kelly's Ford had two of its immense steel strands swept entirely away by that flood.

If the facts show that under flood conditions the town of Remington will be, as I have heard it, 8 feet further under water, then, the farms around me-I think I can fairly say I represent a good many farmers in a friendly fashion-would be very seriously affected.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not understand that Remington will be affected at all, because it is above the actual area that will be overflowed. Mr. HOGUE. I know.. I keep hearing on both sides. Whether it is through misinformation I do not know. I would like to get it cleared up. I keep hearing that the river at flood conditions similar to those in 1942 would rise 8 feet more in Remington. If that is possible, of course, that is a serious istuation. If it is not possible, then, I want to know it, because it would allay the suspicions.

The CHAIRMAN. The same rainfall?

Mr. HOGUE. Approximately the same rainfall.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you feel that Remington and places above are entitled to flood protection, and you would like to see them protected, as well?

Mr. HOGUE. Yes, sir.

Of course, I am interested in the self-liquidating feature of it. The power itself will help relieve certain overburdened taxpayers, like Mr. Walter Chrysler, who lives in Fauquier County.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your statement.

Your next witness, Mr. Smith.

Mr. SMITH. I would like to call next Mr. J. W. Stone of Remington.

STATEMENT OF J. W. STONE, REMINGTON, VA.

Mr. STONE. My name is J. W. Stone. I am the cashier of the State Bank of Remington.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the statements of the preceding witnesses?

Mr. STONE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard generally as to the report of the Chief of Engineers recommending this Salem Reservoir?

Mr. STONE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any facts that you would like to bring to our attention in addition to those that have been submitted?