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These indicate that the crest from Red Run passes Garfield before the main flood crest of the South Branch is reached. This is due to the quicker run-off of Red Run compared to larger, more remote area of the South Branch where flow is also retarded by nụmerous lakes, as will be noted by the accompanying map.

They also show the flood crest at Cass Avenue from the combined North Middle Clinton branches occurring after flood crest on the Red Run at Utica. This is due to the relatively flat slopes in the North Branch and to the fact that it is, in general, farming land.

The records further indicate that the Red Run flood crest has passed Moravian before the main flood crest is reached at Moravian. Therefore, of course the flood crest at Moravian is due to the later flood crests of the North, Middle and South Branches and not to the earlier flood crest of the Red Run.

High water at Gratiot, of course, occurred at or about the same time as at Moravian, though it was probably influenced somewhat by the Harrington Drain Tributary.

These observations check the conclusions of the United States Army Engineer's Report of July 14, 1945, on the Clinton River Cut-off, para. graph 112, that the crest of the Red Run discharge reaches Moravian before the maximum stage is reached at Moravian. Also, that improvement of Red Run would speed up the Red Run flood crest and thus tend to reduce the maximum flood stage of the Clinton River. The Army engineers' report, paragraphs 107–115, does also, we believe, confirm the contention made herein that the Red Run has inadequate capacity and should be improved.

Being a part of the Clinton River system and as its improvement would be of benefit to the downstream Clinton River, it would seem that the Red Run could well be included in the program for Federal aid under the Flood Control Act. Improvement in the Red Run would be of benefit to the well-being and security of approximately 130,000 people in Southeastern Oakland County.

Appended hereto is a map of the Clinton River drainage area. Also indicated thereon are the Red Run section; the Southeastern Oakland County communities; the proposed Clinton River Cut-off; and other pertinent data.

The CHAIRMAN. The maps and so forth may be passed to the clerk for consideration of the committee.

Mr. CLARK. The district in Southeastern Oakland County com. prises 41 square miles and is heavily populated. I have been connected with work in there for some 20 years.

The CHAIRMAN. It is about 20 or 25 miles from Detroit? Mr. CLARK. It is 8 miles from the Detroit River front, and it is contiguous with Detroit.

I am very familiar with the floods in that area. My partner and I made 107 observations on the Red Run, on the North Branch, and on the Middle Branch and the South Branch and the North Branch of the May 11 and May 12 floods.

The CHAIRMĂN. What is the solution of the flood problem? I think it is pretty definitely established that you have a flood hazard.

Mr. CLARK. The solution is to provide greater capacity from the outlet at Campbell and Twelve-Mile Road. Immediately east of that, where it starts, the ground is comparatively high, and I think part of that should be enclosed. Farther it would be open, and as it

goes farther east the ground opens up in more valley ground where you can more economically build an open channel, which would be an open cut.

The CHAIRMAN. As an engineer, would you say that the benefits there would exceed the cost of this proposed improvement, public benefits?

Mr. CLARK. I do not see how I can reduce the benefits to dollars and cents. I have never compiled the figures that way. I know they

The Otto have relief." compiled the figurese the benefits to

The CHAIRMAN. You would say that the public interest would be promoted by the construction of improvements there to protect them from floods? Mr. CLARK. Absolutely. The CHAIRMAN. Any other point that you want to make ? Mr. CLARK. I would like to point out one other thing. There is a district in the South Branch which extends up there to the left. Lake Erie retards the flow. In the North Branch and Middle Branch the land is flat and you have a slow run-off.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have been very fair and helpful in your statement.

Mr. DONDERO. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me this issue has crystallized into this: Mount Clemens and Macomb County do not want to be taxed unless they have relief in Macomb County. On the other hand, Oakland County does not want to be taxed for improvement in Macomb County unless Oakland County also has the benefit of the improvement to relieve their problem. That is all there is to this situation. It seems to me both of these things should be constructed simultaneously.

There is with us Mr. William C. Hudson, who is city attorney of Royal Oak, Mich.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hudson, come around.


ROYAL OAK, MICH. Mr. Hudson. The city of Royal Oak during the past 15 years has been involved in, and I as city attorney for the city have participated in, much litigation over the State drain laws covering cases of one kind and another in every court from the local circuit court of Oakland County to the Supreme Court of the United States.

According to the evidence produced at this hearing the present drainage and flood control problem of the city of Royal Oak and other cities in the Red Run Drainage District in like situation, is to dispose of its own surface water as well as surface water coming into the city from higher levels outside in such manner that it does not back up into the various closed drains and cause the damage described in the previous testimony given to this committee. This testimony also shows that from an engineering standpoint, the only practicable way to dispose of this water is by the widening, straightening, and deepening of Red Run Creek.

But under the law of Michigan, the city of Royal Oak cannot collect its surface waters together at its city limits and cast them in larger quantity or at a greater velocity outside the city than the natural flow, if in so doing it would cause damage by overflowing the lands below or

in other ways. When a water course or drain either open or closed traverses more than one municipality, any improvement to such drain or water course must be done under the laws governing country drains in the State of Michigan.

But the county is also without power to go beyond its own bounds to improve such water courses or drains to solve its flood problems. It is also bound not to collect its surface waters together and cast them in large quantities or at a greater velocity upon lands below in such manner as to cause damage.

In case of a water course traversing two or more counties any construction or improvement to take care of flood conditions or drainage must be taken by an intercounty drainage board consisting of the drain commissioners of the respective counties and the commissioner of agriculture of the State of Michigan.

In the present matter certain officials in Macomb County have obtained an injunction to restrain the Intercounty drainage board from meeting and undertaking the contemplated improvement to solve the drainage and flood-control problems of the Red Run Basin under the State drain laws. The cities are therefore helpless, and Oakland county is also helpless for the first time being to take any action under the State drain laws to solve this problem.

We understand it is the claim of the Macomb County officials, that if Red Run Creek is deepened and widened, it will aggravate the flood conditions in the Clinton River Valley and cause increased damage in that valley. As the record here made this date, and also the Army engineers' survey before this committee for its consideration, both conclusively show the proposed improvement of Red Run Creek would not have any such effect. But if in spite of such findings, the courts of Michigan should determine as a matter of fact that it does have such effect, then as a matter of law we are forever precluded from doing anything locally to relieve our own flood conditions under State law.

As we view the problem the only satisfactory solution is for the Federal Government to extend its dredging project to include Red Run Creek, as we believe that improvement is an essential and integral part of flood control in the Clinton River Valley. We believe that all interested parties should cooperate in putting though as a single project of flood control the spillway near Mount Clemens and the widening, straightening, and deepening of Red Run Creek.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been city attorney for the city of Royal Oak? Mr. Hudson. I have been city attorney for Royal Oak for 20 years.

In brief, the city cannot take of its flood and drainage problems outside of the city limits, under the laws of Michigan. Under the county drain law, if this drain was just an open county, the county drain commissioner could take care of it. It happens to go through two counties.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the other county? Mr. HUDSON. Macomb County.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's see if I get the point. The district there levies the taxes in both counties for the contributions that they are required to make in Clinton on the Clinton River ?

Mr. Hudson. That is right.

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The CHAIRMAN. Whereas if you made this a separate improvement in Oakland County or the county your city is located in, you could only tax the people in your county; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON. That is right. Not only that, under the law we could not widen and straighten Red Run Creek in Oakland County and gather our surface waters together and throw them on Macomb County if they cause damages in Macomb County. It must be done as an intercounty project under the drain laws of the State of Michigan. Drain law provides an intercounty board for taking care of that kind of problem, which is made up of the drain commissioners of the counties that the drain or water course traverses. The other member is the Commissioner of Agriculture of the State of Michigan.

Certain officials of Macomb County have gotten an injunction to restrain the undertaking of the contemplated improvement. So, the city of Royal Oak is helpless and Oakland County is helpless for the time being of taking any action to help ourselves under the State Drain Act.

In other words, we have no way to help ourselves and we must depend upon you to help us solve our drainage problem,

The CHAIRMAN. What do you suggest here as the solution of the problem?

Mr. Hudson. The solution is joining the two projects together and all interested officials cooperating to have the whole thing solved at once.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your statement.
Mr. Dondero, your next witness.
Mr. DONDERO. Mr. Carl W. Forsythe, who is mayor of Ferndale.

I FERNDALE, MICH. Mr. FORSYTHE. I am mayor of the city of Ferndale. I am also assistant prosecuting attorney of Oakland County.

I am tremendously interested in this project. I had planned to summarize this, but I know the chairman does not need a summary. He wants to get out of here.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not speak for the chairman.

Mr. FORSYTHE. We have 130,000 people who are in crying need of this relief. They need it badly. I am here in their behalf, as their duly appointed official, to request that this committee earnestly consider incorporating this improvement along with the improvement requested by Mt. Clemens in connection with the Clinton River.

We regret very much that these two counties cannot come down here hand in hand. We are opposed by Macomb County. We are under injunction, restrained from even meeting to discuss this matter. We feel that this is a proper Federal project. We feel there is a vast public interest connected here with this thing. There are 130,000 people living in this area who are employed in large industries in Detroit and industries in our own vicinity. Their homes are threatened.

We insist that this measure be carried along with the improvement of the Clinton River which your committee is now considering.

The CHAIRMAN. Will your local interests be prepared to make whatever contributions are required ?

Mr. FORSYTHE. We will. The CHAIRMAN. In the way of rights-of-way? Mr. FORSYTHE. In our opinion, our local interests are prepared to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. You are very fair. We are glad to have had your statement.

All right, Mr. Dondero.
Mr. DONDERO. That is all.

I will be very glad to submit a statement to the committee supplementing what I said the other day.

I know this thing. I have lived with it nearly all my life. I know that there is great need for a solution in order to maintain the health • of the people as well as to solve their drainage problems,

The CHAIRMAN. I understand Mount Clemens is located in the district represented by Mr. Wolcott. I trust that you and Mr. Wolcott and the committee will be able to work out the proper solution with the assistance of the Corps of Engineers.

Mr. Harper, for the city of Mount Clemens, do you desire to make any further statement ?



COMMISSIONER Mr. HARPER. I want to thank the representatives of Oakland County for openly stating that they are not in opposition to the project as recommended by the United States engineers. I want to go on record as saying in June of 1945 they were invited to a meeting by Colonel Miller, the district engineer, before that report was submitted to your honorable body, and they did agree then that it was a worthy project. I want to say that Macomb County concurs with the recommendations of the United States engineers.

I would just like to read one statement from the executive secretaryengineer of the Michigan Stream Control, in which he states that [reading]:

Any improvement that would be contemplated upon the Red Run would be contingent upon providing adequate capacity at the mouth of the Clinton River.

I have been requested by the city of Mount Clemens to have written in the record the fact that on May 24 of this year a contract will be let for the construction of a sewage-disposal plant at a cost of not less than $640,000. The mayor of Mount Clemens omitted that and he asked me to write that in today.

We want to work with Oakland County on this project. We feel in Macomb County-I speak for the people who are transported by the United States Coast Guard by boats—that we will cooperate with Oakland County, but first things come first, and we must take care of those people who are continually flooded, three floods in 5 years, which meant the evacuation of their homes, where the American Red Cross, churches, schools, and things as that were set up to provide for those people that had to be taken care of.

The CHAIRMAN. You are familiar with the proposal of the Chief of Engineers. If this project is authorized for construction as recommended by him will it or not, in your opinion, and in the opinion

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