Mr. DONDERO. Our next witness is Mr. Homer W. Clark, consulting engineer for this entire project.

STATEMENT OF HOMER W. CLARK, CONSULTING ENGINEER

Mr. CLARK. Immediately north of and contiguous with Detroit is a developed Detroit suburban area referred to herein as "southeastern Oakland County." It has an area of approximately 41 square miles, an estimated present population of over 130,000. This area is about 52 percent of the entire Clinton River drainage area while the population is about 50 percent. It is composed of the following cities, villages, and townships with the indicated populations, 1940 census: City of Royal Oak.

City of Ferndale.

City of Berkley

City of Pleasant Ridge

City of Clawson_

City of Huntington Woods_

Village of Oak Park.

Township of Royal Oak, Including city of Hazel Park....
Townships part of Troy and Southfield___

Total___

25, 087

22, 523

6, 406

3, 391

4, 006

1,705

1,169 22, 040

700

87,027

The area is residential and the residents, in the main, work in the Detroit area automobile and allied industrial plants.

Southeastern Oakland County, in the general period 1920 to 1930, constructed an extensive system of covered drains which carry both storm and sanitary flow. These were built under the Michigan State drain law and costs assessed against the property benefited.

Subsequently, certain of the drains were by court action declared illegal, and the drain law amended. As a result, it became practically impossible to carry out a major drain project under the old procedure. The main southeastern Oakland County drains, including the 10foot Campbell, the 15-foot Royal Oak, and the 8-foot Clawson, all terminate at and run into the Red Run ditch and at Twelve Mile Road and Campbell Road. The Red Run, which is a natural drainage outlet, is a tributary of the South Branch of the Clinton River. From the point of discharge at Twelve Mile and Campbell Road, it is, by stream, 12 miles to the junction with the South Branch of the Clinton River; 181⁄2 half miles to the Moravian Bridge on the main Clinton River; and 29 miles to the Clinton River mouth at Lake St. Clair.

Subsequent to the construction of the drains and the greatly increased development of the area served, with a population about treble that of 1920, various attempts were made to obtain more outlet storm water capacity and also sewage disposal. These all ended in failure, primarily due to the lack of any way to finance, except for sewage disposal which, due to Federal Works Agency assistance, became a reality in 1943-44, and is now in operation.

The sewage disposal project was financed by a Federal Works Agency grant of $662,000 and by the county sale of $905,000 of revenue bonds. These revenue bonds are supported by a charge based on water used by each consumer who has a connection to the drain or sewer system. Under the sewage disposal system, which was approved by the Michigan State Department of Health, Permit No. 4846 of June 3, 1942, the sewage is intercepted at the drain outlets

and is conveyed by a 5 foot 6 inch interceptor and pumping station to the city of Detroit sewage disposal system.

However, the storm flow capacity of the Red Run, which is the natural drainage outlet, is entirely inadequate, and yearly flooding not only of basements but also of certain of the streets and roads results. It is not only flooding in time of general heavy rainfalls, but it also occurs during local storms of less intensity.

That the capacity is inadequate is probably self-evident when it is realized that no additional capacity has been developed in the Red Run since the 10-foot Campbell drain was built. That is, no additional outlet capacity was provided when the 15-foot Royal Oak drain was constructed. As further proof, the Royal Oak, Campbell, and Clawson drains have an outlet capacity at Red Run of 2,000 cubic feet per second. The average carrying capacity of Red Run without surcharging the drains at this point to Dequindre Road which is the Oakland-Macomb County line, is only 600 cubic feet per second, or only about one-third that required. During the storm of May 11, 1943, the writer observed the flow in the Red Run and, based on actual water elevations taken at the time, computed the observed flow between Campbell Road and Dequindre Road to be 2,200 cubic feet per second. The observed elevation of the water surcharging the sewers at Campbell Road was 62 feet, so of course they could not function properly. High water marks indicated the surcharge had been about 8.8 feet.

During the storm of May 11-12 just referred to, which storm is also covered in the United States Army Engineers Report of July 14, 1945, on the so-called Clinton River cut-off, the writer and his partner, Mr. Albert Roth, made 107 observations of water elevations. These covered the period from 1:50 p. m., May 11, 1943, until 5:30 p. m., May 12, 1943. Observations were made on the Red Run, Bear, Beaver, Plum Brook, and Harrington tributaries, and the South Branch and North Branch, and the main stream of the Clinton River. These observations extended from Campbell Road along the Red Run, thence along the Clinton River all the way to Lake St. Clair; and this period overlapped the time of high water except at Campbell Road and Red Run for about 3.5 miles downstream thereof, for which observations were made shortly after high water had occurred.

Besides others, observations were made at the following points:
Red Run tributary of South Branch at-

Campbell Road: Upstream end of Red Run, 18.5 miles upstream from
Moravian and 29 miles upstream from Lake St. Clair.

Dequindre Road: Oakland-Macomb County line, 16 miles upstream from
Moravian Drive.

Utica Road: Adjacent to confluence with South Branch of Clinton River
and 5 miles upstream from Moravian.

South Branch of Clinton River at

Garfield Road: About 1.5 miles downstream from Red Run confluence and 5 miles upstream from Moravian.

North Branch of Clinton River at

Cass Road: Just downstream from confluence of Middle Branch and just north of confluence with main stream, and three-fourths mile upstream from Moravian.

Clinton River, main stream at

Moravian Drive: Site of Government gage-downstream from all branches and 10.5 miles upstream from Lake St. Clair.

Gratiot Avenue: Just upstream from Kibbee Flats and 9 miles upstream from Lake St. Clair.

These indicate that the crest from Red Run passes Garfield before the main flood crest of the South Branch is reached. This is due to the quicker run-off of Red Run compared to larger, more remote area of the South Branch where flow is also retarded by numerous lakes, as will be noted by the accompanying map.

They also show the flood crest at Cass Avenue from the combined North Middle Clinton branches occurring after flood crest on the Red Run at Utica. This is due to the relatively flat slopes in the North Branch and to the fact that it is, in general, farming land.

The records further indicate that the Red Run flood crest has passed Moravian before the main flood crest is reached at Moravian. Therefore, of course the flood crest at Moravian is due to the later flood crests of the North, Middle and South Branches and not to the earlier flood crest of the Red Run.

High water at Gratiot, of course, occurred at or about the same time as at Moravian, though it was probably influenced somewhat by the Harrington Drain Tributary.

These observations check the conclusions of the United States Army Engineer's Report of July 14, 1945, on the Clinton River Cut-off, paragraph 112, that the crest of the Red Run discharge reaches Moravian before the maximum stage is reached at Moravian. Also, that improvement of Red Run would speed up the Red Run flood crest and thus tend to reduce the maximum flood stage of the Clinton River. The Army engineers' report, paragraphs 107-115, does also, we believe, confirm the contention made herein that the Red Run has inadequate capacity and should be improved.

Being a part of the Clinton River system and as its improvement would be of benefit to the downstream Clinton River, it would seem that the Red Run could well be included in the program for Federal aid under the Flood Control Act. Improvement in the Red Run would be of benefit to the well-being and security of approximately 130,000 people in Southeastern Oakland County.

Appended hereto is a map of the Clinton River drainage area. Also indicated thereon are the Red Run section; the Southeastern Oakland County communities; the proposed Clinton River Cut-off; and other pertinent data.

The CHAIRMAN. The maps and so forth may be passed to the clerk for consideration of the committee.

Mr. CLARK. The district in Southeastern Oakland County comprises 41 square miles and is heavily populated. I have been connected with work in there for some 20 years.

The CHAIRMAN. It is about 20 or 25 miles from Detroit?

Mr. CLARK. It is 8 miles from the Detroit River front, and it is contiguous with Detroit.

I am very familiar with the floods in that area. My partner and I made 107 observations on the Red Run, on the North Branch, and on the Middle Branch and the South Branch and the North Branch of the May 11 and May 12 floods.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the solution of the flood problem? I think it is pretty definitely established that you have a flood hazard.

Mr. CLARK. The solution is to provide greater capacity from the outlet at Campbell and Twelve-Mile Road. Immediately east of that, where it starts, the ground is comparatively high, and I think part of that should be enclosed. Farther it would be open, and as it

goes farther east the ground opens up in more valley ground where you can more economically build an open channel, which would be

an open cut.

The CHAIRMAN. As an engineer, would you say that the benefits there would exceed the cost of this proposed improvement, public benefits?

Mr. CLARK. I do not see how I can reduce the benefits to dollars and cents. I have never compiled the figures that way. I know they have got to have relief.

The CHAIRMAN. You would say that the public interest would be promoted by the construction of improvements there to protect them from floods?

Mr. CLARK. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other point that you want to make?

Mr. CLARK. I would like to point out one other thing. There is a district in the South Branch which extends up there to the left. Lake Erie retards the flow. In the North Branch and Middle Branch the land is flat and you have a slow run-off.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have been very fair and helpful in your

statement.

Mr. DONDERO. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me this issue has crystallized into this: Mount Clemens and Macomb County do not want to be taxed unless they have relief in Macomb County. On the other hand, Oakland County does not want to be taxed for improvement in Macomb County unless Oakland County also has the benefit of the improvement to relieve their problem. That is all there is to this situation. It seems to me both of these things should be constructed simultaneously.

There is with us Mr. William C. Hudson, who is city attorney of Royal Oak, Mich.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hudson, come around.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM C. HUDSON, CITY ATTORNEY OF

ROYAL OAK, MICH.

Mr. HUDSON. The city of Royal Oak during the past 15 years has been involved in, and I as city attorney for the city have participated in, much litigation over the State drain laws covering cases of one kind and another in every court from the local circuit court of Oakland County to the Supreme Court of the United States.

According to the evidence produced at this hearing the present drainage and flood control problem of the city of Royal Oak and other cities in the Red Run Drainage District in like situation, is to dispose of its own surface water as well as surface water coming into the city from higher levels outside in such manner that it does not back up into the various closed drains and cause the damage described in the previous testimony given to this committee. This testimony also shows that from an engineering standpoint, the only practicable way to dispose of this water is by the widening, straightening, and deepening of Red Run Creek.

But under the law of Michigan, the city of Royal Oak cannot collect its surface waters together at its city limits and cast them in larger quantity or at a greater velocity outside the city than the natural flow, if in so doing it would cause damage by overflowing the lands below or

in other ways. When a water course or drain either open or closed traverses more than one municipality, any improvement to such drain or water course must be done under the laws governing country drains in the State of Michigan.

But the county is also without power to go beyond its own bounds to improve such water courses or drains to solve its flood problems. It is also bound not to collect its surface waters together and cast them in large quantities or at a greater velocity upon lands below in such manner as to cause damage.

In case of a water course traversing two or more counties any construction or improvement to take care of flood conditions or drainage must be taken by an intercounty drainage board consisting of the drain commissioners of the respective counties and the commissioner of agriculture of the State of Michigan.

In the present matter certain officials in Macomb County have obtained an injunction to restrain the Intercounty drainage board from meeting and undertaking the contemplated improvement to solve the drainage and flood-control problems of the Red Run Basin under the State drain laws. The cities are therefore helpless, and Oakland county is also helpless for the first time being to take any action under the State drain laws to solve this problem.

We understand it is the claim of the Macomb County officials, that if Red Run Creek is deepened and widened, it will aggravate the flood conditions in the Clinton River Valley and cause increased damage in that valley. As the record here made this date, and also the Army engineers survey before this committee for its consideration, both conclusively show the proposed improvement of Red Run Creek would not have any such effect. But if in spite of such findings, the courts of Michigan should determine as a matter of fact that it does have such effect, then as a matter of law we are forever precluded from doing anything locally to relieve our own flood conditions under State law.

As we view the problem the only satisfactory solution is for the Federal Government to extend its dredging project to include Red Run Creek, as we believe that improvement is an essential and integral part of flood control in the Clinton River Valley. We believe that all interested parties should cooperate in putting though as a single project of flood control the spillway near Mount Clemens and the widening, straightening, and deepening of Red Run Creek.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been city attorney for the city of Royal Oak?

Mr. HUDSON. I have been city attorney for Royal Oak for 20 years. In brief, the city cannot take of its flood and drainage problems outside of the city limits, under the laws of Michigan. Under the county drain law, if this drain was just an open county, the county drain commissioner could take care of it. It happens to go through two counties.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the other county?

Mr. HUDSON. Macomb County.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's see if I get the point. The district there levies the taxes in both counties for the contributions that they are required to make in Clinton on the Clinton River?

Mr. HUDSON. That is right.