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The most important point is that the B. & 0. Railroad runs up through this valley, and if the proposed Dillon Dam is put in, that entire B. & 0. track from here all the way up to Marr would have to be relocated, about 20 miles of relocation, which is estimated, or was estimated in 1939 at $4,000,000, and I believe that under current labor and material cost it will have to be revised upward substantially.

That would be entirely eliminated. In other words, the B. & O. tracks could be left right where they are, that responsibility would be done away with and these smaller dams would give additional flood protection to the people of this valley, so that in addition to providing the same protection for the Muskingum River and Licking River, because of the same water area which would be held back they would also have that additional protection for the people of Licking Valley and also the people of the town of Newark, since Raccoon Creek and these other places would be held back.

The CHAIRMAN. The railways and the highways both, in the other 13 dams, have been relocated and the highways and particularly the railways have been relocated in practically all of the reservoirs and dams above you in the so-called Pittsburgh area, and I have known of few dams in any improved country where there has not been a railway relocation or highway relocation.

Now, any other matters that you have in mind we can discuss now. What sort of a conservation pool do they have in this reservoir!

Mr. Gary. There will be a conserving pool which will extend from 700 feet elevation to 734 feet elevation, and will take in a large part of this area right here. The remainder of the pool is this flood-control pool, which would take in the entire amount shown.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you say the lands along the Licking River were more highly improved than the lands along the other streams where the other 14 reservoirs are built, in the New Philadelphia country?

Mr. GARY. I am not too familiar with that.
The CHAIRMAN. One final question, if you will permit, Mr. Griffiths.

Who is here representing, now, the landowners, who live along these tributaries of the Licking River above the proposed 13 alternate dams?

Mr. Gary. Mr. Brailer is the postmaster at Nashport, but that is not above the dam

The CHAIRMAN. I am not asking about "above."

Mr. Gary. There is no one here representing those but I believe Mr. Brailer has talked the matter over with some of them.

The CHAIRMAN. The reason I asked, probably the greatest protest we have had during these hearings for the last 10 days was from residents along the upper stretches of tributaries of the Green River in Kentucky where, instead of building the dam along the Green River they proposed to build along the tributary and those folks came in and protested probably more vigorously than they have down the stream.

Are there any further questions, Mr. Griffiths?
Mr. GRIFFITHS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gary is granted permission to extend his remarks for the record.

(Extension of remarks of Holland M. Gary :)



I am appearing here today in behalf of the Licking Valley Protective Association, to place before you a modification of the proposed Dillon Dam on the Licking River, near Zanesville, Ohio. I believe that a substantial saving can be accomplished by this proposal, at the same time retaining all the flood-control benefits and eliminating some of the disadvantages of the Dillon Dam.

The plan I am submitting was suggested, and the map depicting it, which was placed in the record by Representative Griffiths, was prepared by William Nash Ellis, chief research engineer for the Simplex Engineering Co., of Zanesville, Ohio, and formerly engineer with the Muskingum Conservancy District. Mr. Ellis is here with me to answer any questions of a technical nature which may arise. The plan is briefly, to construct a series of 13 or more, smaller dams on the tributaries of the Licking, in a similar manner to the construction of the 14 conservancy dams on the tributaries of the Muskingum.

The advantages of this proposal are

(1) The relocation of the B. & 0. Railroad, which has been estimated to cost from $4,000,000 to $6,000,000 would not be necessary.

(2) The villages of Nashport, Irville, Toboso, Pleasant Valley, Hanover would not have to be condemned and moved.

(3) The valuable farm land in the Licking Valley would not be destroyed.

(4) Additional flood protection would be provided to the villages in the Licking Valley, and also to Newark, Ohio.

(5) The taxpayers of Muskingum and Licking Counties would not have to assume additional burdens due to removing valuable property from the tax duplicate.

(6) The program of soil conservation which is sponsored by the Ohio Conservation Department, would be aided, and the water table of the surrounding area would be raised through percolation from the reservoirs.

It has been mentioned that a smilar amount of land would be needed for the alternative dams, but it should be remembered that these lands are in the head. waters, and would not be as valuable for agricultural purposes as would the bottom lands in the Licking Valley. Also there would be no populated communities, except for an occasional farmhouse, that would be involved under the multiple dam system, and this would reduce both the cost and inconvenience, without diminishing the benefits.

The last survey of this watershed made by the Army engineers with respect to a multiple dam system was made in 1934, at the time the Muskingum Conservancy District was organized. This survey, however, included only the watershed above Newark, and no account was taken of the tributaries flowing into the Licking below Newark. At the time this survey was made, the entire Licking Valley program, single dam as well as multiple, was rejected by the engineers as being more costly than was justified by the benefits. If, during the past 12 years, conditions have so changed as to make the single Dillon Dam practical, might they not also have changed so as to make the multiple system practical? We are asking the committee to have a new survey of the entire program made by the Army engineers, with a view to determining which program will be more economical and beneficial, both to the communities on the Muskingum and Ohio Rivers, and to those of the Licking Valley.

It should be borne in mind that the proposal we hereby submit is not a detailed and specific plan. The Licking Valley Protective Association has neither money or personnel to make such a detailed survey. The Army engineers, acting on directions of this committee, should properly make such a survey. If, as we firmly believe, the results of such a detailed survey indicate that the benefits of the multiple system would be as great or greater than those of the single dam, and the costs of the multiple system would be substantially lower, than we will ask that the committee reconsider the type of dams to be placed on the Licking River, and modify the project to the extent of adopting the proposal here made.

I greatly appreciate the courtesy shown by the chairman and members of the committee in allowing us time this morning to present this proposal, and I feel that the keen insight of the members on the problems of soil conservation and flood control, as evidenced by their questions and remarks, assures us that the proper decision will be reached, not solely from the standpoint of our own community, but from that of the entire Nation.

Thank you for your attention.

The CHAIRMAN. Your next witness, please.

Mr. GRIFFITHS. Mr. W. N. Ellis, of Zanesville, Ohio. He is an engineer, formerly from the Muskingum Conservancy District.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you represent?



Mr. Ellis. I represent the Licking Valley Conservancy District. The CHAIRMAN. Are you connected with the Ohio Conservancy District?

Mr. Ellis. No, I am not, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you help to perfect those plans for the construction of those 13 reservoirs ?

Mr. ELLIS. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. And were you interested in the Government subsequently taking over and reimbursing that conservancy district?

Mr. Ellis. I was acquainted with that feature.

The CHAIRMAN. So that was what happened, that the Government is now putting the conservancy district reservoirs in the Muskingum on a par with the reservoirs all over the country.

Mr. ELLIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And there have been highway relocations and railway relocations.

Mr. Ellis. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And there have been valuable lands taken for the construction of those reservoirs.

Mr. ELLIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And you are familiar with the fact that we have had many complaints before this committee of residents whose cellars and homes have been overflowed and damaged.

Mr. Ellis. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Your point is what? Do you have a brief as an engineer representing these people ?

Mr. ELLIS. I am going briefly into that. The CHAIRMAN, Go ahead. Do you have a prepared brief! Mr. ELLIS. Yes. The Muskingum district has 14 dams. The CHAIRMAN. We have gone into that. Mr. Ellis. We wish to propose that we do the same thing on the Licking River. If a series of dams is suitable on the upper reaches of the Muskingum, why is it not applicable to that of the Licking, Mr. Chairman, when the cost will be less, and the benefits derived will be even greater than one dam, and safer! It will conserve; it will offer flood protection.

It will conserve the water above the dam the same as one single dam, and if the Licking Valley Reservoir, the little dam, is the only system to employ construction of flood control and conservancy, would not that same thing apply to the Muskingum River, and one larger dam could have been constructed at or near Dresden, Ohio, just above Zanesville, rather than the 14 dams in the surrounding area in the vicinity of Akron? That is what we are driving at.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you submit that view to Colonel Arthur, the district engineer!

Mr. Ellis. Yes, in 1939. The CHAIRMAN. Did you submit a brief to him? Mr. Ellis. Not at that time, a letter only. The CHAIRMAN. We have had not only letters but during the course of the past 12 years many other people have made those suggestions, and generally when we have gotten the reports, I recall in the area down in the town in the lower Mississippi Valley, we have had we have asked for those investigations repeatedly to suggest tributary dams, and the engineers have come back to them, and the district and division engineers have reported on a large single dam, rather, separated dam, in almost every case. You may proceed.

Mr. ELLIS. We would like to have the United States engineers investigate the possibility of the multiple system. When I say “make a survey" I do not mean the expenditure of huge amounts of money. Perhaps the cost would be $3,000 or $4,000 to perform a survey, an office survey, 10 men, 10 days; 20 men, 20 days; a thousand hours or 2,000 hours will definitely decide whether the multiple system is correct as against a single-dam system. This will apply throughout the United States.

We are becoming more soil-erosion conscious and flood-control conscious. They link arm in arm. And if the multiple system is wrong, it will not cost much to find it out.

There is more to the Licking Valley than to any other project. The cost there is very little.

The CHAIRMAN. As an engineer, have you investigated the matter and this question, What is the area that is to be submerged for reservoir purposes in the proposed project?

Mr. Ellis. Around 12,000 acres, is it not? The CHAIRMAN. What would be the area under your substitute plan?

Mr. Ellis. About 93 percent of that.
The CHAIRMAN. You mean it would take about 7 percent less?
Mr. Ellis. Yes. As near as we can figure.
The CHAIRMAN. Will anything be moved?
Mr. Ellis. Not a thing.

The 1939 estimate is around $4,000,000, I believe. To run 2 years from now would be about $6,000,000. We can revise that upward, can we not?

The CHAIRMAN. You are doing the talking, because if I get started we will not finish.

Mr. Ellis. That is approximately all I have to say, except that we are all flood conscious all over the United States. You will grant that, sir. The CHAIRMAN. No argument. That is my job,

Mr. Ellis. We will help you out down there. In the next 15 years we are going to build these series of dams and conservancy districts all over the United States.

If a single dam is the correct thing to do, that is what should be built in almost every instance. If a multiple system is correct, let us have the multiple system.

We ask that this be investigated in this particular case at a very little cost.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other statements that you desire to make, or any other witnesses, Mr. Griffiths !

Mr. GRIFFITHS. Just one; and I have just about finished.
Mr. Brailer, of Nashport, Ohio.



Mr. BRAILER. I own two pieces of property from the basin area; rather, one is in the basin area and the other is on the Brayham; and we will be cut off from access to schools, churches, and everywhere but the engineers say we will get no compensation.

There are about 600 families estimated affected in that area.. It will take out our schools, churches, and all our community standards, and it will take out everything that is vital to that community.

Now, there are 600 families on your hands to move. We are there. You have to find a place for us to go if you put in the Licking Dam.

That is the real problem at the present time, to find a place to put us, and some of the proponents of this dam have the opinion that the engineers plan to move us, but they do not.

They have not promised to move us at all. All they have committed themselves to is that they will come in there and buy the property, and we don't know what it will be.

Then it is up to us to take our chances, on whether we can replace our property or not. But, in any case, and in the instance in which I am affected, and a number of others are, they do not take all of our farms. They only leave one-third of my farm, and first they came and said, “We will give you an easement on it," and then they came back and said, “We will buy the whole farm,” and then they came back and said, "No, we can take only what is in the basin area.”

So that left us our hill land and farm buildings, and we cannot do business on that.

But all along the brim of that valley they take the valley lands, our lands where we must make our living, and they leave us the land that is no good, just turned to pasture and woodland. That happens all along the valley.

Now, up above, in the Licking area, the railroad does great damage. In Licking County it passes through the little village of Marr and moves over into their backyards. Mrs. Whoorley has spent a large sum of money in beautifying a very beautiful property there.

Mr. McGREGOR. May I interrupt? I have a telegram from her saying she spent $150,000 on that property. Mr. BRAILER. I believe that.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you connected with the Licking Valley Protective Association ?

Mr. BRAILER. I am.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. E. R. Cunningham, the secretary of that association, present?

Mr. BRAILER. He is not.
The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking for the association?

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