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The CHAIRMAN. There are no levees along the Wabash?

Mr. MCBRIDE. There are levees only on the Illinois side.

The CHAIRMAN. Is your road north of Vincennes anywhere protected by levees along the Wabash?

Mr. MCBRIDE. I would say "No." There is a levee to the north, but we feel it is more harm than protection to us.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, none of your railroads north of Vincennes are protected by levees?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are your yards here?
Mr. MCBRIDE. Our yards are down in here.

The CHAIRMAN. What is this here?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is an industrial spur.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there not a levee along the Wabash that protects the city of Vincennes?

Mr. MCBRIDE. There is a seawall along the river.

The CHAIRMAN. It does protect the city of Vincennes?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It affords it some protection; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. About how long has it been there, Mr. McBride? Mr. MCBRIDE. It was built some time after the flood of 1913.

The CHAIRMAN. About how high would you say it is above the level of the ground, in back of it, on the land side?

Mr. MCBRIDE. About 4 or 5 feet, I would judge. It is not over that, I do not believe.

The CHAIRMAN. In protecting the city of Vincennes, does it protect the road there?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It does not.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, your industrial spur is not protected by that levee?

Mr. MCBRIDE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean the existing levee that protects the city?

Mr. MCBRIDE. I do not believe it comes down that far, Mr. Chair

man.

Colonel WEST. If I may speak, sir, I believe I can clear up this question.

The CHAIRMAN. You may speak, Colonel, and answer that. Tell me whether or not the existing track there is protected by the municipal flood wall.

Colonel WEST. It was protected in 1943.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been protected since it was built?

Colonel WEST. Yes, sir; it has. The flood wall has never been overtopped.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any difference in the protection accorded to that?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It would have been overtopped in 1943 if it had not been for the Army.

Colonel WEST. We kept it from being overtopped.

The CHAIRMAN. My point is, and I am just asking you, if this flood wall does not protect the city and at the same time protect this spur track.

Mr. MCBRIDE. Well, it perhaps does. industries on that track, Mr. Chairman.

There are only one or two

The CHAIRMAN. I did not ask you about that; I just asked you if the track was protected because it was inconceivable to me that it would protect the city and not the track. Is that right?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McBride, I do not want to hurry you, but this road goes through Vincennes. Does this flood wall protect your main road that goes through the city here to the same degree that it does that part of the city through which your road runs?

Mr. MCBRIDE. In a general way, yes. However, the water could come around behind this wall. That is where it was coming in 1943. The CHAIRMAN. Would it give you the same degree of protection that it does the municipality?

Mr. MCBRIDE. I would say so, yes. I would say that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel, what are you doing with respect to the existing wall of Vincennes?

Colonel WEST. The present wall is too low.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you doing, are you making a flood wall? You are making it as indicated in red here?

Colonel WEST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. About how much are you raising it?

Colonel WEST. As I recall, it is about 6 feet, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say a back levee, what do you propose to do?

Colonel WEST. The present levee will be reconstructed completely. The CHAIRMAN. Indicate it from start to finish.

Colonel WEST. From the end of the wall [indicating on the map], which is about here, all the way around to high ground here. The CHAIRMAN. That is your back levee?

Colonel WEST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no levee there at present?

Colonel WEST. There is a road embankment that acts as a levee, but it is inadequate in height and we had to sandbag it in 1943. The CHAIRMAN. Did you sandbag the railroad?

Colonel WEST. We did not have to, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did it get over the railroad where you are putting this gate?

Colonel WEST. It did not get that high, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is this down around here in red. Is that a continuation of your back levee?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Yes, sir.

Colonel WEST. There is a wall that ties into the Brevoort levee and we have another spur levee that comes around the back side of town in case this levee were to fail.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McBride, your objection is to leaving this gate here and closing in in flood time?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What damage will that do to you that you do not now have? Please watch my question. What additional hazard will you be subjected to that you are not now subjected to, even if the recommendation of the engineers is accepted?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Well, we have never had water on our track.

The CHAIRMAN. Unless the rains get up there you never will have it. Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. What additional flood hazard are you subjected to by this improvement that you do not now have? Mr. MCBRIDE. Well, our railroad is cut. here

We suggest that this levee

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Just a minute now. You can make all the suggestions you want to, but answer my question. What additional flood hazard would the construction of this project, with the proposed gates, subject your railroad to that you do not now have at present?

Mr. MCBRIDE. There would be no additional flood hazard, it would be cutting our railroads, though.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they do anything to your railroad?

Mr. MCBRIDE. They put gates over it.

The CHAIRMAN. They do not put them over there unless the flood

comes.

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. They would not do it unless the flood was overflowing that city, would they?

Mr. MCBRIDE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So in all fairness, you are not subjected to any additional hazard that you do not now have by the construction of this project?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Do you mean flood hazard?

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only hazard we are talking about.
Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you not the same situation that obtains at Huntington, W. Va., with respect to highways and with respect to other flood walls where railways and highways enter municipalities? What they do as a general rule is to do just what they propose to do there now, to install those gates and those gates will never be lowered and your railroad would never be cut off unless your railroad would have been cut off although no improvements were made at all. Is that not substantially true?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Not with what we are planning, it would not be. As I stated this morning we are raising our tracks to get them above the flood walls.

The CHAIRMAN. If you did it here there would be no need for a gate.

Mr. MCBRIDE. Yes; but that is a very expensive operation, with these yards in here.

The CHAIRMAN. As one of the largest taxpayers to the Nation, if it was too expensive for your railroad, would it not be too expensive for your Government?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It would be expensive and we could suggest a lessexpensive way, and that is to move this levee south about 8,500 feet, where it will intersect us, where we are above the level of the levee. Colonel WEST. I do not believe there is any objection to that being considered when the details of the project are worked out.

The CHAIRMAN. What about this over to the north?

Mr. MCBRIDE. On this, we have been working on this thing, bringing our track all through this new flood territory, which extends from about here, south of Emison, down along in here where we have had difficulty. We had suggested and had succeeded in getting our track above any previous high water until 1943, and now we are starting

to get up above that. When we get above that then we are shut off here at this gate.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be shut off if you raised it at the gate to the same height that you are raising it above?

Mr. MCBRIDE. We are up against it, south of this gate to raise it, for the reason that we would not have to raise it as high because there is some freeboard allowed on the levee that would not interfere with us as far as our operation is concerned. We are faced with the further fact that the Pennsylvania Railroad has a branch road along the side of ours and we could not raise ours without raising theirs.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your suggestion to remedy the situation? Mr. MCBRIDE. Our suggestion is that the raising of this track through this gate should be a part of this project.

The CHAIRMAN. However, you pay for it, do you not? There is nothing to prevent your doing it, is there? There is nothing in this project to prevent your raising it?

Mr. MCBRIDE. With the exception that we would have to raise the track of the Pennsylvania Railroad, too. They run within about 15 feet of our track. We cannot raise one without raising both.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have that same situation above?

Mr. MCBRIDE. No; we have not.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you build theirs when you built yours? Did you build them simultaneously or separately?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That was before my day. I think ours was built first down there.

The CHAIRMAN. Your line is built so you cannot raise it?

Mr. MCBRIDE. We cannot because the Pennsylvania came in afterward.

The CHAIRMAN. The Pennsylvania would prevent your raising your lines?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It would prevent our raising our lines without raising theirs, too.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Why can't the Pennsylvania Railroad raise their own lines?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Their line is the end of a branch line of the Pennsylvania, and it is not as important to them as our line is to us, because our line is the main line.

The CHAIRMAN. They both have the same gate, and your remedy for that would be not to have your gate and just leave you open there altogether. Would that suit you?

Mr. MCBRIDE. It would suit us, but it would not suit the city. It would not protect the city if that were done. They are figuring on protection against any flood, and I do not believe it would suit the city. The CHAIRMAN. What is the alternative that you suggest?

Mr. MCBRIDE. We think the tracks should be raised up to there as a part of this project.

The CHAIRMAN. To come right down and translate it, you want the Government to pay for raising the track.

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. It can be done, can it not?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. However, if it must be raised, it will have to be raised by yourselves and the Pennsylvania Railroad, but what you are interested in is raising your track?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. What would that cost?

Mr. MCBRIDE. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. I have made no estimate of it.

The CHAIRMAN. It is costing you some money to raise it above there?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Oh, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel West, is there any other statement you want to make for the committee?

Colonel WEST. I have no further statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any further statement, Mr. McBride? You may make any statement you care to.

Mr. MCBRIDE. I have no further statement.

Colonel WEST. I believe most of the objections of the railroads can be met when we work the project out in detail in the field. We will go into the economics of the thing. If it appears better to raise the track one or two feet, and it would not interfere with any other features of the project as was true in the case of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad-you see, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad bridge must be raised across the Wabash River. We must raise the bridge, and to raise the bridge and maintain the same grade on the Baltimore & Ohio we have to raise the tracks. Any adjustment in the Baltimore & Ohio track would have to be made in your track as well, as they cross over your tracks.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Dunn, I am just wondering if this language can be so arranged that any modifications believed feasible by the Chief of Engineers will be treated favorably.

Colonel DUNN. That would be satisfactory; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that be all right with you, Mr. McBride? Mr. MCBRIDE. We would be happy to work with the engineers. The CHAIRMAN. That will be all for this afternoon. Thank you very much.

Is Mr. Black present?

STATEMENT OF C: R. BLACK, DIRECTOR OF THE INDIANA FLOOD CONTROL AND WATER RESOURCES COMMISSION

Mr. BLACK. We have our report sent to General Wheeler and the Army engineers. We agree with the entire Wabash program for the State of Indiana.

We have no objections to the plans of the Army engineers. We would like to plead with the committee to increase the appropriation so that we could have some of our work carried out in the State of Indiana. Very little of the work that was orginally planned has been carried out in the State, but that is not the fault of the Government nor the Army engineers; it is the fault of the local interests in failing to provide the right-of-way. We have asked for Cagles Mill and we would like to see the appropriations made so that Cagles Mill Reservoir might be built. We especially plead for that because there are two levee units, Eel Levee Units 1 and 2, which would be modified considerably if Cagles Mill could be built. They are included in the ones for the State of Indiana.

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