Mr. HICKMAN. Now, if you please, I should like first to have the committee incorporate in the hearings on the Jackson River project the statements made by Gen. E. Walton Opie, of Staunton, Va. They are general in nature and they apply with equal force to the Jackson River project. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, General Opie's statement, which already appears in the record, will be considered in connection with the hearings on the Jackson River and other Virginia rivers. General Opie's statement is broad enough to cover all of the Virginia river projects. Mr. HICKMAN. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Mr. HICKMAN. My clients, if you please, in 1940 purchased approximately 373 acres of land on the Jackson River located near where the dam will be constructed or is proposed to be constructed. I shall make my statement very brief. The purpose they had in purchasing this real estate was to have a place for retirement in their old age. Now, of course, I know that the committee will say that if the real estate is taken, the Government will pay them for it. That is all true, but there are many things, if you please, that money cannot buy. That old farm is one of them. We are unalterably opposed to the Federal Government going into business in competition with private industry. We do not think that it is the interest of the citizens of this country to have the Federal Government go into business, into competition with the citizens. Mr. JACKSON. How is that going to take place here in this project? Mr. HICKMAN. How is it going to take place? Mr. JACKSON. Yes. Mr. HICKMAN. That is, I think, a question that states its own answer. Mr. JACKSON. I do not quite agree with you. How is it going to be going into business in competition with private enterprise? Mr. HICKMAN. It will be against private enterprise. It so happens that this region-I am not speaking for anyone but my clients-it so happens that the region that will be taken is owned by a public utility; apparently the public utility company purchased that region with the idea of building a dam themselves someday. Mr. JACKSON. Do you mean they were going in to build a dam there? Mr. HICKMAN. I am not sure as to that but it was several years ago. Mr. JACKSON. They wanted to build a dam there? Mr. HICKMAN. I said I do not know. estate. They purchased the real Mr. JACKSON. It is kind of vague to me. I do not just follow your line of reasoning. You say you oppose the Government going into business? Mr. HICKMAN. What are they going to do if they build a multiplepurpose dam there? Mr. JACKSON. They can sell power to private utilities there. Mr. HICKMAN. But do we know that will happen? Mr. JACKSON. It is happening all over. I do not know why it would not happen down here. Mr. HICKMAN. I do not know that it would here. Mr. JACKSON. Where would they sell it? Mr. HICKMAN. They could sell it direct to the ultimate consumer. That is one way of disposing of the energy. Mr. JACKSON. Is there any such authorization in this bill which proposes that? Mr. HICKMAN. As a matter of fact, sir, I think that the bill confines itself strictly to flood control. Mr. JACKSON. Is there any basis for your statement? Mr. HICKMAN. No; there is no data. The bill does not say whether the electricity will be generated for sale to ultimate consumers or to other industries. Mr. JACKSON. Or require an authorization. The Army does not have authority to sell to ultimate consumers. Mr. HICKMAN. Not so far as I know. Mr. JACKSON. Then what is the basis of your statement? You say the reason for this project is to go into competition with private enterprise. That is the statement you made a while ago. Mr. HICKMAN. When the Federal Government goes into the business of generating electrical power, it is for one of two purposes, sometimes three, I suppose: To sell it to the industry, second, to the ultimate consumer, thirdly, to power companies. Mr. JACKSON. Oh, I don't think that follows at all. I think you will find in any number of TVA sales to the Georgia Electric Co., the sales are for a tremendous amount of power and the sales are to the public utilities. Mr. HICKMAN. Possibly it is true. Mr. JACKSON. It is true in my country, out at Bonneville. Practically all the private companies there purchase from the Federal Power. I am trying to get from you what information you have where, for instance, the development of this project will put the Government directly in competition with the private power companies. Mr. HICKMAN. It certainly is going to put the Government in business. Mr. JACKSON. Well it is in business in flood control. You made the statement. If you cannot answer, do not. Mr. HICKMAN. I do not know what they will do with it, however it is only reasonable to assume that the Federal Government will not go to the enormous expense of building multipurpose dams just to generate electrical energy to be released into the atmosphere. Mr. JACKSON. Then there is no basis for your statement that they are going into competition with private industry. Mr. HICKMAN. I am stating that we are unalterably opposed to the Government going into competition with private industry. Now if it should happen that the Federal Government, by building multiplepurpose dams, does not go into competition with private industry, then another question is presented. Mr. JACKSON. Then there is nothing in the basis of your objections, is there? The Army engineers haven't recommended it. Has anyone said that they should go into competition with private industry? Mr. HICKMAN. We merely said that we are opposed to it. Mr. JACKSON. But the natural inference from your statement is that that is going to happen. You are not making general statements which have no application to the project. I assume you want them to be relevant. Mr. HICKMAN. That is true. We assume some disposition will be made of the electrical current. All right; just what that disposition will be we do not know. Mr. JACKSON. It will require an act of Congress if the Government is going to sell the power to the ultimate consumers, as I understand the law. Is that correct? General CRAWFORD. No, sir; the existing law provides that the power will be marketed by the Department of the Interior. Mr. JACKSON. At the bus bar. General CRAWFORD. Yes, sir. The power is turned over to the Department of the Interior at the bus bar. Mr. HICKMAN. The present law does not say how it shall be marketed, does it? General CRAWFORD. I do not think it is specifically mentioned. I will insert that portion of the act in the record. (The matter referred to is as follows:) [Extract from act approved December 22, 1944 (Public Law 534, 78th Cong., 2d sess.] SEC. 5. Electric power and energy generated at reservoir projects under the control of the War Department and in the opinion of the Secretary of War not required in the operation of such projects shall be delivered to the Secretary of the Interior, who shall transmit and dispose of such power and energy in such manner as to encourage the most widespread use thereof at the lowest possible rates to consumers consistent with sound business principles, the rate schedules to become effective upon confirmation and approval by the Federal Power Commission. Rate schedules shall be drawn having regard to the recovery (upon the basis of the application of such rate schedules to the capacity of the electric facilities of the projects) of the cost of producing and transmitting such electric energy, including the amortization of the capital investment allocated to power over a reasonable period of years. Preference in the sale of such power and energy shall be given to public bodies and cooperatives. The Secretary of the Interior is authorized, from funds to be appropriated by the Congress, to construct or acquire, by purchase or other agreement, only such transmission lines and related facilities as may be necessary in order to make the power and energy generated at said projects available in wholesale quantities for sale on fair and reasonable terms and conditions to facilities owned by the Federal Government, public bodies, cooperatives, and privately owned companies. All moneys received from such sales shall be deposited in the Treasury of the United States as miscellaneous receipts. The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the law is to utilize the facilities so that the consumers would be protected and public utilities, municipalities, REA, and others would have the right to buy the power. Mr. JACKSON. Would it affect the consumers and have a tendency to reduce the rates? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I would answer you by saying that if TVA sells to the Arkansas Power Co., there is stipulated a condition, with the understanding that the Arkansas Power Co. will give a benefit to the Arkansas consumers. Mr. JACKSON. I understand that. The CHAIRMAN. That is correct. Your first point is in regard to the Government going into business. What is your other point? Mr. HICKMAN. Are not the stipulated conditions by which the TVA sells to the Arkansas Power Co. such as to give to that agency or bureau of the Federal Government the power to break the power company if the power company does not comply with all the requests and demands of the agency or bureau? The mere fact that we live in a republic is no assurance that we cannot have as head of an agency or bureau of the Federal Government a man whose lust for power is far greater than his love for the form of Government conceived by our founding fathers. It is that there are four purposes for which the dam may be constructed. One is the abatement of pollution. The CHAIRMAN. Do you oppose that or not? Mr. HICKMAN. To be brief, I think the law is to the effect that it is not constitutional, particularly in Virginia, to take private property for the abatement of a public nuisance. Pollution of a stream, it seems to me, is nothing more than a public nuisance. The CHAIRMAN. I see. Mr. HICKMAN. The recreational facilities seem to be one of the purposes for which the dam is built. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. HICKMAN. Well, if you build the dam, it will be built between two high mountains, and I believe in order to get to the lake you will either have to go up over a high mountain and come down on the other side or you will have to start at the end of the lake and proceed, possibly way down, to where you can reach the lake. The third reason for the project is flood control. The next purpose is generation of electrical power. I think it is conceded and everybody knows that as far as flood control is concerned, the building of a dam at Jackson is not at the right place, and will not be of any benefit, or of very little benefit in flood control, particularly as far as the James River is concerned. The high waters in the James River have come from east of the Blue Ridge Mountains as a general rule. Now, there are other rivers east of the Jackson River flowing into the James that are much larger than the Jackson River. If the purpose were flood control, then there are other places where the dam could possibly be built. The CHAIRMAN. Would it require some other man's land if it were built at the other places? Mr. HICKMAN. I believe that there are a few places where a dam could be built without taking more than but a very little land for adequate control. Here is a substitute for that particular dam [indicating]. My recollection is, and I could not say as a positive fact, but I believe that there is a gorge east of Clifton Forge, Va., possibly 10 to 15 miles? The CHAIRMAN. On the Jackson? Mr. HICKMAN. On the combined Jackson-Cow Pasture Rivers. Mr. HICKMAN. If the dam is constructed, one thing that I think should probably be considered which I do not think has been considered in the Army engineers' report is that the nearest highway for people who live in the western part of that country goes through this gorge where the dam will be built, to get to Covington, and they will have no road to get to Covington unless they greatly detour. The CHAIRMAN. We understand that. Mr. HICKMAN. If the dam is constructed, it will mean that those people in going to the nearest market of any consequence will have to travel just about twice as far. In getting their pulpwood to market they will have to go just about twice as far. The CHAIRMAN. Covington would be interested in that. Mr. HICKMAN. It seems that the pulp company and the merchant would be interested in that. The CHAIRMAN. All right; you may proceed. Mr. HICKMAN. I know, and I am aware of the fact, that there are many people, the vast majority of the people in that country, who are in favor of the dam. We concede that. We know that the majority, of course, generally rule, and that is as it should be. We know that the will of the minority must be subservient to the will of the majority. However, we do not think that it is very satisfactory to run the Government by straw ballots. As one man put it when I asked him why he was in favor of the dam-he said: "I do not believe in the Federal Government building such projects, but it seems that if we do not get it, someone else will." That, sir, I believe is the general opinion of most people today, that the Government is handing out something and if they do not get it, someone else will. The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have your statement and I would be glad if you would furnish this committee with a copy of the brief that you filed with the Army Board of Engineers. The matters you mention of recreation and pollution, and for that matter navigation benefits, would be incident to the fundamental purposes of flood control. We may be in error but if we are to have flood-control power generated in the public interest on streams which can be improved, with an elimination of pollution and the added recreation for the benefit of the people, why it is our opinion that the people ought not to be denied those benefits merely because the dam is constructed primarily for flood control. I believe that is a fair statement. Whether or not that would apply to this particular area I do not know. Mr. HICKMAN. That is very correct. Another thing that possibly should be mentioned in connection with the dam, of course, is that there will be approximately 400 to 500 acres of tillable ground which will be taken; and it seems with starving people throughout the world today, that we need all that ground in cultivation. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. HICKMAN. And there will probably be starving people in the world for the next 2 or 3 years. Mr. JACKSON. Of course, if we do not control floods, you may lose more than 400 or 500 acres of tillable land. Mr. HICKMAN. I would not say there is much advantage in flood control on the Jackson River. (The statement referred to is as follows:) Brief. To: Army Board of Engineers, Washington, D. C. Helen Croxton Williams, Lewis B. Williams, and Lewis C. Williams, the fee simple owners of certain tracts of land containing approximately 300 acres, lying and being on the waters of Jackson River, Bath County, Va., near the site of the proposed Gathright Dam, desire to set forth very briefly their objections to the construction of this proposed dam. For purposes of clarity and brevity, our objections will be set forth in the following order: ** AUTHORITY Article I, section 8, paragraph 17, of the Constitution of the United States, in dealing with the authority and power of Congress, provides, in part, as follows: and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; # * ལ་གས The Code of Virginia seems to be at variance with the acts of the General Assembly of Virginia as to just which sections of the Code of Virginia are the proper sections pertaining to the acquisition of lands in Virginia by the United States for certain governmental purposes. There seems to be no doubt, however, that the Legislature of Virginia has by properly enacted laws, permitted the United States, and agencies and departments thereof, under certain conditions, to acquire lands, either by purchase or condemnation, in Virginia for certain specified governmental purposes. We have not found that the Legislature of |