Lord Camden.

are we to alter the laws of the land, because from fome particular inftances we are induced to think and feel our confciences satisfied? No; if it be an hardship which may extend in a variety of inftances so as to become a real grievance, let the legiflature remedy it, let a bill be brought in to prevent the mischief; but let us not, under the appearance of equity and justice, by a vote or determination of this House, overthrow all law and juftice, and by averting one evil, introduce ten thousand others of infinitely greater magnitude.

Lord Camden closed the debate. He informed the House, that as he did not attend till the second day, he should give no vote on the occafion; he should never be the first that would introduce fo fatal a precedent, fhould it ever come to be adopted, as giving a vote without perfonally attending from the beginning to the end. His Lordship complimented Lord Mansfield highly on the part he had taken, as the great patron of the common law. He expatiated largely on the fentiments thrown out by the noble and learned Lord; after which he confined himself chiefly to two points: the first to prove, that there was no compofition; for that the fum paid was always fairly equivalent to the value of the land, even to the very laft compofition, in the reign of Queen Ann, when the lands in question were rated at 104). per annum, and the compofition was 151; the second, to fhew, that whenever a nullum tempus bill fhould pafs, respecting the poffeffions of the clergy, from that inftant there would be a foundation laid for ftripping her of her inheritance, as things might be eafily managed between the patron and incumbent, so as that in two ordinary fucceffions, the patrons, in whofe gifts the livings are, might fettle matters with those who might be glad to accept them on any terms; that compofitions might be fet up within a period of fixty years, fufficient to ftrip the church of more than one half, or two thirds of the real value of the livings fhe now poffeffed.

The question being put on the Lord Chancellor's motion, it paffed in the affirmative, without one diffenting voice.

There were feldom lefs than fixty Lords prefent, during the whole time of hearing this caufe, and fixteen or eighteen bishops.]

March 15.

Second reading of the New England reftraining bill. This bill was brought up from the Commons on the 9th, and immediately read the first time, when there was no debate.

The

The Marquis of Rockingham prefented the following petition against the bill.

To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament affembled.

The Petition of the Merchants, Traders, and others of the City of London, interested in the American commerce, Humbly fheweth,

That your petitioners are deeply concerned to find that there is now depending before this right honourable House, a bill to restrain the trade and commerce of the province of Maffachusets Bay, and New Hampshire, and colonies of Connecticut and Rhode Island, and Providence Plantation in North America, to Great Britain, Ireland, and the British Inlands in the Weft Indies; and to prohibit fuch provinces and colonies from carrying on any fifhery on the banks of Newfoundland, or other places therein to be mentioned, under certain restrictions, and for a time to be limitted.

Your petitioners beg leave to reprefent, that the faid bill, fhould it pafs into a law, will, in its operation, deprive thoufands of his Majesty's loyal subjects of their actual fubfistence, and reduce them to extreme diftrefs, even that of famine, the faid provinces not generally raising corn fufficient for their own fupport; and by this bill they will be prevented from receiving any fupplies from their fifter colonies, and precluded from their natural refource-the fea.

Your petitioners have reafon to believe, that very great numbers of men, bred and employed in the fisheries, who in hardiness and intrepidity are not exceeded by any in this extenfive empire, will be impelled, by the preffing calls of hunger and want, and a juft feeling for their violated rights, to fuch a conduct as may be productive of devaftation and bloodfhed, which may endanger the peace and welfare of his Majefty's American dominions; or be induced to employ themfelves in fishing for the French, and thereby give our rivals the means of fupplying the markets in Europe, which will render it difficult for us ever to regain that valuable branch of

commerce.

Your petitioners beg leave further to reprefent, that there is now due from the faid provinces and colonies, to the city of London only, one million fterling and upwards; that their remittances are almost entirely made by means of the fifheries, and confequently the ruin brought on thofe colonies will deeply injure the commercial intereft of Great Britain, and ultimately fall on the landed property of thefe kingdoms. That among the other grievances of which our fellow fub

jects

Mr. Seth
Jenkins.

jects in America fo generally complain, is their being deprived of trial by jury in particular cafes, and the extenfion of the jurifdiction of the admiralty courts; which grievances your petitioners, with much concern, find are not only continued, but extended by the prefent bill; and they think it their duty to reprefent it as their firm opinion to this right honourable Houfe, that the difquietudes which univerfally prevail in the minds of their fellow fubjects in America, will be increased and confirmed by this bill, which is unjust, as they conceive, because it involves the punishment of those who are allowed to be innocent, with those who are fuppofed to be guilty, and that these difquietudes will never be removed, unless lenient measures are purfued, and their grievances redreffed.

Your petitioners therefore most humbly pray, that the faid bill may not pafs into a law.

The house after fome debate agreed to read the bill, and then to call witnesses.

Mr. Seth Jenkins, master of a trading veffel, was the first witness called. He faid that the inhabitants of the island of Nantucket confift of about fix or feven thoufand fouls, moftly Quakers; that their whole employment was in fishing on the banks of Newfoundland, and in the whale fifhery; that they generally fitted out 32 fail of ships annually, navigated by 2400 feamen; the average produce of the cargoes at market was about 90,000l. that the veffels were mostly built in America, which found the timber, the mafts and the iron, all the other materials being the produce of Great Britain, befides the fishing tackling, nets, &c. that they had their provi❤ fions from the continent, which being cut off by the present bill, they must perish with famine, from two caufes equally inevitable, being deprived at the fame time of the means of purchafing or procuring provifions, had they the liberty fo to to do, or of the liberty, had they the means of paying for them; that the New-England provinces produced a fufficient quantity of provifions for their own confumption, except in the article of bread corn; that they had wheat flour, and Indian corn from the more fouthern provinces of New York, Penfylvania, &c. that if they fhould be cut off from those fupplies, the certain effects of fuch a prohibition must be a famine; that they are in no habit of cultivating their land, fo as to raise corn fufficient for fome years for their fupport, nor, with their greatest efforts of industry, could they be able to raise a substitute, fuch as potatoes, &c. in the place of corn, fufficient to prevent a famine; and, that he was well convinced, that no temptation would induce them to fettle in

Nova Scotia, or about Halifax, as they believe it to be à military government.

Mr. Brook Watson, an American merchant, was the next Mr. Brook perfon examined. He faid, that he went to America in the Watson. year 1764, with an intention of acquiring every poffible information relative to the ftate of the trade and commerce of that country, and after the most laborious researches and careful investigations, he found it to be of the utmost confequence, and daily on the increase; that among the first important branches of their commerce, he discovered the fishery to be one, continually employing 6000 feamen and 150 fail of veffels, befides the numbers employed to carry the cod, whale fins, blubber, oil, &c. to the feveral European mar kets. He then entered into a long detail, enumerating the feveral articles juft mentioned, the places where they were dif→ pofed of,and the various great and important benefits derived to the mother country, where the whole at last centred. He ftated that the amount of the fishery, or the net proceeds at the West Indian, Portuguese, Italian, and Spanish markets, was about 290,000l. per annum, on an average; and he be lieved it to be confiderably increased fince he made his computation. He further informed the Houfe, that the amount of the exports to America,at that period was about 2,700,000l. per annum ; and that he believed it was fince very confiderably increased. He obferved, that the general entries at the custom-house are usually very erroneous; and being asked how he could pretend to speak with fuch accuracy upon the fubject, he answered, that at the time of the repeal of the ftamp-act, the committee of merchants agreed to put in unfigned papers into a box, ftating the amount of their refpective exports; and that upon examination, thofe papers furnifhed the round fum of 2,610,000l. He was then preffed to declare, if all the fuppofed hardships and fevere confequences dreaded from the bill might not be eafily prevented by the people on whom this bill was intended to operate. He said, if he had liberty to speak his fentiments, he was ready to reply. Being defired to proceed, he faid, in the inftance now before the House, the very reverse was known to be the cafe; for here are 7000 perfons doomed to ftarve for want of provifions, or the means of paying for them if they had them, without any imputed fault or act of difobedience whatsoever; therefore, fays he, I think that thofe people at leaft cannot, by any act of their own, prevent the ruin and destruction which now threatens them, as they are ready to submit to every ordinance and command of the mother country.

Meflrs.

Meffrs. Lifser and

vis.

Admiral

Meffrs. Lifter and Davis, two merchants of Poole to Newfoundland, were next feverally examined. Their evidence went to prove, that there are, upon an average, about 36,000 tons of fhipping employed in that fishery, befides fhallops; that out of that number, Poole and Dartmouth supply about two-thirds, and that they are managed in the proportion of 100 men to a veffel of 200 tons, or one man to two ton; that thofe crews confift generally of 12 able feamen, and 88 paffengers; that to every four feamen they are obliged to carry out a green man, that is, to make a man unused to the fea learn to work the fhip, row, &c. that the whole number employed is about 20,000 perfons, and the net produce of cargoes at market about 500,000l. that if a total prohibition took place, fo as intirely and perpetually to exclude the New-Englanders, Great Britain would almoft this year, and ever after, be enabled entirely to fupply the European markets; that this would be much more advantageous to the mother-country, as it would occafion an encrease of feamen, fit to man our fleets on any emergency, which could not be the cafe in either event, were the New England fishery continued; for, in the first place, the profits never centered here, nor did their fishery scarcely afford a fingle feaman in time of war, as they were exempted by act of Parliament from the prefs. They added befides, that France could never come in competition with us, as they had neither the means of curing the fish when catched, nor the mode of fitting it for the foreign markets; that the fpecies of fish now fold in Spain was moftly cured by the Americans, but that the British fishery could foon supply that market; and that on the whole, France hardly caught fish enough to answer their own comfumption. For the reafon before affigned, they said France never would be able to extend their fishery, namely, the want of room to cure and dry their fish.

Admiral Shuldham was next examined. He confirmed the Shuldham. teftimony of the last two witneffes in many particulars. He faid, the numbers were about twenty thousand employed; and that for the feveral reafons enumerated by the two preceding witneffes, it would be better, for every reafon of policy and commerce, to encrease our trade, and ftrengthen our navy, to referve that branch of it entirely to the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland.

Sir Hugh
Pallifer.

He was followed in the fame fentiments by Sir Hugh Pallifer, at that time, comptroller of the navy, who thought the New England people did the British fishery a great deal of

hurt