thirds west of the hills. It will give protection to that territory over there.

We have no objection to Morganza. I cannot see any good reason why they were ever tied together. If the people down in the south end of the Eudora spillway want to take their chances and are refusing to sign options, as I understand, for the reason that they do not feel the Eudora spillway is necessary or will ever be used, even if they leave it open at the State line, they would not be taking any more chances than they say they want to take before they sign options.

Senator MILLER. You are not concerned with doing this work down in Louisiana?

Mr. GRUBS. No; not at all.

Senator MILLER. You spoke about Monroe and other towns in Louisiana being flooded. Suppose this back protection levee were left out entirely. Just rub it out and forget about it. Then suppose this is left here in its present shape. What is going to happen in the event this fuseplug breaks?

Mr. GRUBS. The water is going to spill out, of course, and, according to the engineers' testimony, about two-thirds of the water will go down the Boeuf Basin-that is, west of the hills, around that Mason Ridge, down through Monroe, Rayville, and through that territory— and about one-third will go down through Mr. Hamley's parish, East Carroll, right next to the river.

Senator MILLER. Down into the Tensas Basin?

Mr. GRUBS. Yes; East Carroll, Madison, and Tensas.

Senator MILLER. How deep was the water in 1937 when we had this flood up here?

Mr. GRUBS. On my farm I think it was about 18 feet deep.
Senator MILLER. Where is your farm?

Mr. GRUBS. Right northeast of the town of Eudora, right under the ridge.

Senator MILLER. You do not think there would be any trouble at all in obtaining the options in this Arkansas section?

Mr. GRUBS. Not one bit.

Senator MILLER. For making floodways or upon the assumption that they prepare this fuseplug and build this back protection levee and leave it open down here or tie it in, whichever the engineers may suggest?

Mr. GRUBS. There is no objection on the part of Arkansas. We would rather have it left open.

Senator MILLER. I think we would too, but it is a matter for the engineers. But if this will take care of it down here, all right. Mr. GRUBS. Yes.

Senator MILLER. Later, if it develops that at any rate a diversion must be built down here, the engineers can make it?

Mr. GRUBS. There would be only about 2 miles across there. It depends on whether you run it straight across from the hills to the river. If it is an angle, of course, it would be longer; but if you run it straight across, it would only be about 2 miles at the south end.

Senator MILLER. You would be perfectly willing to leave the matter of actual location of this back protection levee to the engineers to determine whether it should be 5 miles, 2 miles, or 10 miles? Mr. GRUBS. Yes.

Senator MILLER. Conditioned upon the payment of flowage rights?

Mr. GRUBS. Yes. In building this we throw one town, Arkansas City, which has almost been abandoned, as I understand it, into the proposed Eudora spillway in Arkansas. At the same time we will protect Dumas, Winchester, Tillar, McGehee, Dermott, Montrose, Portland, Wilmot, and Parkdale. In sacrificing 195,000 acres, we will be protecting approximately 1,000,000 acres in Arkansas.

Senator BILBO. You will protect Lake Village and Eudora also, will you not?

Mr. GRUBS. Eudora is above overflow. We are on the hill.
Senator BILBо. Lake Village is not?

Mr. GRUBS. I should have named Lake Village.

Senator BILBO. Arkansas City is the only town

Mr. GRUBS (interposing). That will be thrown inside. I think everybody is agreed that there is no way to save Arkansas City. Senator MILLER. That is right opposite Catfish Point anyway, is it not?

Mr. GRUBS. Yes.

Senator BILBO. Most of the land opposite the proposed spillway is highly developed?

Mr. GRUBS. Yes, sir, it is a highly developed section of the country. Senator BILBO. You say there are 30,000 people living in there? Mr. GRUBS. No, I do not know, Senator.

Senator BILBO. Do you know how many property owners there are in that spillway?

Mr. BAXTER. I think about 1,200; maybe more; I am not sure. Senator BILBO. About how many people?

Mr. BAXTER. I would say about 8,000.

Senator OVERTON. Mr. Grubs, would the people in Arkansas object to condemnation of fee simple title to the lands between the fuse plug levee and the back-protection levee?

Mr. GRUBS. Well, I suspect that some of them would, Senator. Senator BILBO. When you say some of them, do you mean a bare minority, or do you mean a majority?

Mr. GRUBS. The only information under the sun that I have got to base an answer on is this: While they were taking options for fee simple titles as well as for flowage easements, I know they came in rather slowly. I signed them, and I think most of the people in my end of the county did, but they were glad down there that the options were changed from fee simple to flowage. I do not believe there would be any serious objection to selling fee simple title to that property across there.

Senator MILLER. If it were narrowed, probably it could be, but the counties would object on account of the loss of taxation, and so on. Mr. GRUBS. Yes; it would materially affect, for example, our school district at home and would cause some loss of revenue to the county. Senator OVERTON. The people in Arkansas have no objection to this bill that undertakes to separate the Morganza from the Eudora? Mr. GRUBS. Senator, I do not see why they were ever tied together. We have absolutely no objection.

Senator OVERTON. You do, however, want to get as much protection as you possible can up there in Arkansas?

Mr. GRUBS. Senator, we have been sitting there under that fuseplug levee for 10 years. Our territory has been avoided and blacklisted so that we do not know what to do or what to expect.

Everyone knows, as I said before, that you cannot get much information from the engineers. The boys that we come in contact with tell us that they are not authorized to talk, and we never get to talk with the big boys, so we just do not know what to expect.

As I said awhile ago, the general impression prevails that the Jadwin spillway, as provided for in the 1928 bill as we say it exists today, is an uncontrolled spillway and we are setting right there in the mouth of it without any protection, without any compensation, or without anything else.

Senator OVERTON. When Arkansas gets wet, Louisiana does also? Mr. GRUBS. It is bound to.

Senator BILBO. The sense of security has come to the people on the west side of the back levee, and the security will so enhance the value of that property that it will more than offset that loss created by the spillway and will take care of the receipts of your county governments.

Mr. GRUBS. That is probably true but is more or less problematical. Senator BILBO. That uncertainty there has had a tendency to beat down the value of land holdings?

Mr. GRUBS. Unquestionably.

Senator MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Grubs.

Senator MILLER. The next speaker is Mr. Sam J. Wilson.

STATEMENT OF SAM J. WILSON, MONTROSE, ARK.

Senator MILLER. Will you state your name and address for the record, please?

Mr. WILSON. My name is Sam J. Wilson. I live at Montrose, Ark. I am a farmer and represent no one other than myself.

Senator MILLER. In order that Senator Overton, Senator Bilbo, and I may know just where you live, will you show us on the map just where you are situated?

Mr. WILSON. I am right opposite Greenville and Lake Village right due west.

Senator MILLER. Your farm lies west of the proposed back protection levee?

Mr. WILSON. Yes. I haven't got a foot of land in the proposed spillway.

Senator MILLER. Go ahead and make whatever statement you wish to make, Mr. Wilson.

Mr. WILSON. Immediately after the flood of 1927 the Jadwin law was passed. If my information is correct, under the Jadwin bill the Mississippi side was to have 3 feet more freeboard than the west side. I further understand that the law is that the levee on the Arkansas side shall be built up to the 1914 grade and 1928 section. Is that true? Senator MILLER. That is correct.

Mr. WILSON. That has never been done. We are 6 feet below the Mississippi side now. May I ask why that has not been done? I ask just as a citizen and as a taxpayer.

Senator OVERTON. The engineers had better answer that question. Mr. WILSON. Well, is that the law?

Senator OVERTON. The law is that when the Eudora has been constructed, and not until the Eudora has been constructed

Mr. WILSON. That is in the 1936 law, not in the 1928 law. In the 1928 law it says it must be built up to 1914 grade and 1928 section. Senator OVERTON. That is my recollection.

Mr. WILSON. That is mine. I would like to have you gentlemen tell me where I can go as a taxpayer and demand that that be done. We have been sitting there since 1914. We are in a spillway. My home, my family, and everything I possess is there and is unprotected.

Congressman Whittington asked General Ferguson yesterday if he did not think everybody was entitled to the same protection. I agree with him fully. I am here to tell you gentlemen today that we have not had the same treatment.

You go up and look at our levee. Why, one of those broad jumpers can jump it.

Then look at the levee at Greenville, Miss. It looks like a mountain. I am here to tell you that I think both Arkansas and Louisiana have been badly treated by the Mississippi crowd. We have been outgeneraled everywhere. We are entitled to this, and I am here to ask for it.

Under the new farm bill it is going to be hard for me or anybody else to try to develop land and make a dime. If I am to be kept in this spillway, it is likely to put me out of business. I am here in a spirit of self-preservation and am asking for protection. We ought to get it now. We have been waiting 11 years. What do you think about it?

Senator BILBO. I am for you.

Senator MILLER. You say that your farm and all of the other farms similarly situated are in the uncontrolled Boeuf floodway at this time? Mr. WILSON. Right now.

Senator MILLER. Do you think, as has been said, that if the Eudora is built at all, which we have got to assume, it will not be built at any time soon-that is, the lower section?..

Mr. WILSON. Yes.

Senator MILLER. Do you have any objection to this particular Morganza matter?

Mr. WILSON. Morganza?

Senator MILLER. Yes.

Mr. WILSON. I cannot see why anybody who is interested in lowering the level of the Mississippi would be against the Morganza anywhere; I do not care where he lives. If he lives at Cairo, he should be interested.

4

Senator MILLER. What suggestion do you have to make with reference to our levee situation?

Mr. WILSON. I think they ought to build that back levee or they ought to abolish that part of the law that gives Mississippi a 3-foot freeboard. Give us the same levee that Mississippi has, or give us that back protection levee, I do not think it would be fair to the people of Louisiana to punish them by lifting that around at the south end of the Arkansas line, I think it ought to be brought back into the Mississippi River.

Senator BILBO. If the people in the Eudora spillway are willing to take chances, have you a right to complain?.....

Mr. WILSON. They have not said they are willing to take chances, that I have heard of. Possibly they have.

Arkansas has complied with everything it has ever been asked to do. We want the spillway and we want that levee built up. I am here to ask you to request a stoppage of these delays and to ask you to give us some protection. Eleven years is a long time for anybody to wait for anything.

Senator BILBO. Can you get any loans on your land?.

Mr. WILSON. Oh, we can get all the loans we have to have, but not from the Federal land bank.

Senator OVERTON. I think we had better correct the record. You asked about the fuse-plug levee a while ago.

Mr. WILSON. Yes.

Senator OVERTON. Under the Jadwin plan I think it was to be a 1914 grade and a 1914 section.

Mr. WILSON. Well, it is not up to that. Dam it, we have no levee, Senator. Here is a man who knows more about it than I do.

Senator OVERTON. You wanted to know whether the fuse-plug levee was to be constructed to the 1928 grade. It was to be constructed to the 1914 grade and the 1914 section.

Mr. WILSON. You did not answer me when I asked you where I should go to see, if that was in force, if we could get that levee put up there.

Senator MILLER. What would you think about the proposition of proceeding simultaneously with the construction of the floodway in the northern section with the Morganza, opening that up, and making such arrangements as are necessary for the fuse-plug levee and the back-protection levee in Arkansas? That will protect Arkansas and north Louisiana.

Mr. WILSON. I would not have any objection to it.

Senator MILLER. That would solve our problem?

Mr. WILSON. That is exactly what we want.

Senator MILLER. As I understand it, it would leave only the problem that might later develop as to the necessity of providing a diversion channel if the Morganza and the other cut-offs did not do what we think they will do?

Mr. WILSON. In addition, in the last 6 years there have been at least a hundred new families who have made homes in Chicot and Desha Counties. The Government about 6 months ago bought 10,000 acres of land, and they are moving people in. The manager told me the other day that he had authority to spend $150,000 more on those homes. They are right in the middle of this. Our county is developing as it is, but it would develop a great deal faster if we had proper protection. What I want to insist upon again is giving us some protection so that Louisiana and Arkansas will not be endangered when we start another crop.

Senator BILBO. In response to your observation that Mississippi has better levees than Arkansas, I should like to say for the record at this juncture that that is true but that Mississippi has contributed roughly, by taxes imposed upon herself, about $50,000,000 for the building of those levees.

Mr. WILSON. Nobody but the Lord knows how many dollars our section has put in; I do not know. We owe $2,400,000 in levee taxes

now just in that one little district.