The CHAIRMAN. The same complaint might be lodged against th Supreme Court. You are a quasi-judicial

Mr. JOHNSON. Absolutely; and we have got to take the complaint and, when we are not nearly up with them, we are restricted on th things we can do on our own motion.

We have got to let 180 people go between now and the 1st of July Senator MAGNUSON. Colonel, your point was that if we are goin to have a national transportation policy, we will have to get away from the commissions that act only on matters that come before them an have a live, virile Department of Transportation. Is that not wha you said?

The CHAIRMAN. Held by a Cabinet officer.

Mr. JOHNSON. Anything that is not at the Cabinet table in th country is out of luck. You have got a fine transportation polic that you spelled out in 1940, but it is impossible of pursuit, under th archaic

Senator MAGNUSON. Do you not think some of those cases dow there take too long, though?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; in the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals and every other court they take too long. What are you going to d when you are tied up sometimes 2 or 3 weeks before you get a stenog rapher to type it?

Senator MCFARLAND. My questions are not pointed so much at criticism of the Commission. I am trying to find out factual informa tion as to whether this does exist, and then we have got to get at th cause; the fact of the situation as it exists, as I understand it, is tha either you are not adequately staffed or the law is wrong, or something else, to the point that you are investigating nearly all the time th complaints of others and that you have not the staff and you are no doing the work of an independent body and doing investigation as t the things that should be done and making recommendations on you

own.

Mr. JOHNSON. You are perfectly right, sir, but we have got to keep up with complaints lodged, and we have not got enough people t do it. You are restricted in things on your own motion, and that i

true.

Senator MCFARLAND. Colonel, I am not saying what the cause is I am just saying that it is a matter that Congress has got to giv consideration to.

Mr. JOHNSON. I agree with you thoroughly.

Senator CAPEHART. Mr. Johnson, has the matter been settled ye as to whether Diesel engines shall carry two engineers?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. Is that still pending?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is still in the advertisement stage.

Senator CAPEHART. Does the ICC have anything to do with it?
Mr. JOHNSON. It could only come up under safety.

Senator CAPEHART. It would come up under safety?
Mr. JOHNSON. That is where it would come up.

Senator CAPEHART. The unions are maintaining that each Diese engine should have two engineers?

Mr. JOHNSON. Two engineers.

Senator CAPEHART. And how many Diesel engines are there in th United States?

Mr. JOHNSON. I wish I could tell you, but there are almost no steamers on order.

Senator CAPEHART. What will that increase the cost to the railroads?

Mr. JOHNSON. Increase the cost?

Senator CAPEHART. Yes, sir; if they are required to carry two gineers.

Mr. JOHNSON. They cost about $250,000 a section; they run two and three sections; so Diesel locomotives would cost about six or seven or eight hundred thousand dollars.

Senator CAPEHART. No. I mean what would it increase the opersting costs to the railroads if each Diesel engine must carry two gineers instead of one?

Mr. JOHNSON. It would cost whatever an engineer gets, and I k a day's work is 125 miles.

Senator CAPEHART. Do you think the unions would stand for minating the flagman?

Mr. JOHNSON. The flagman?

Senator CAPEHART. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. I have no idea. I have not discussed this with any Jon man or railroad man.

The CHAIRMAN. You have got to have a man on the rear of the

Mr. JOHNSON. He is talking about a fireman?

Senator CAPEHART. Flagman, I said.

Mr. JOHNSON. I do not think, gentlemen, you are going to get rid a flagman. Very often he is a very vital man. No matter what hanical device you have, radar, you cannot do away with a flagn. It looks foolish, but at times he is vital.

Senator REED. Colonel, you might have said something in your behalf that you did not say. I happened to be chairman in the Congress of the appropriations subcommittee dealing with the ependent offices which includes Interstate Commerce Commission. You might have said that you requested more liberal appropriations your department so that you could employ more service agents;

you not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; but everybody asks for more money. rybody asks for more.

Senator REED. And you did not get it, so that it is not your fault;

It

Senator MCFARLAND. Just one more question here, if I may. occurred so me that one of the difficulties of the railroads todayI am not speaking of course as an expert like my friend the man here, or my friend Senator Reed, on transportation-is there has been a lack of speed in connection with transportation the railroads, both of passengers and of freight. That is, making proper connections to the West.

If these trains were properly connected, these fast trains, to where could get on the train and go through like you would like to, re would be more people ride the trains and there would be more sportation by freight instead of maybe by some other means which be in the future.

Do you agree with me that something should be done about that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. For instance, Commissioner Aitchison is the west coast now. He wanted to go through St. Louis. He look up his schedule. There was a certain line he wanted to use to Louis.

That train to St. Louis got there 5 minutes after the departure one of the transcontinental trains. He came to my office and sa "Now, look there."

I think the Commission, if it had time and personnel, could lo over the freight and passenger schedules without any resistance a get those reformations; but we just have not got the people to do tha Senator MAGNUSON. There is a Chicago bottleneck, too. Senator MCFARLAND. Yes; that is the worst one.

Mr. JOHNSON. You take the matter of tariffs. They file a tar and they go into effect if nobody protests them. The Commissi has not got the staff to read and study and weigh and evaluate tarif They go into effect unless they are protested. If a postcard comes protest, it is suspended and there is a hearing, if necessary, before goes into effect.

But here we have our tariffs all over the Nation. Few of them a looked at by the Commission, unless protested.

If you undertake to evaluate every tariff filed with the Commissio they come in reams.

Senator MCFARLAND. In other words, you need a department agency that will look at them for the public.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we are supposed to look at them, not every o of them; but certainly if they are protested. And when we cann keep up with the protests, how are we going to read and evaluate of them?

Senator MCFARLAND. And the public cannot keep up with them. Mr. JOHNSON. The public keeps up with them better than y think. Don't think they don't.

Senator MCFARLAND. The big men keep up with them.

Mr. JOHNSON. Some of these little men are just as sharp as a f terrier.

Senator MCFARLAND. I would like to talk with you about th sometime, about the discrimination in freight rates. I can show y plenty there.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, Senator. In a thing as big as this railro group and other transportation, you can find lots of thorns in t sticks.

I will warn you, no tariff goes into effect until the eagle eye of t customer looks at it. I will guarantee that. They are scrutinize Senator MCFARLAND. Some of the customers do not.

Mr. JOHNSON. You have got somebody else that does. It does n get in likely. They are scrutinized and they are protested.

Senator MCFARLAND. I will say to you, Colonel, that they are n doing their duty, because there are a lot of them that are going in th are discriminatory, and the job is not being done.

Mr. JOHNSON. If you will take the period where we made so man changes in freight rates percentagewise, there are a lot of them the have got to be adjusted.

When things settle down, the Commission is going to have tremendous task of adjusting rates and restoring lack of prejudi and preference. It is just going to be terrific.

This percentagewise raise has just raised havoc in relations territorially and point to point and everything else.

It frequently results in percentagewise that a remote place pays less Ight than a proximate place.

Senator MAGNUSON. And the West is in bad shape.

Mr. JOHNSON. Everybody is in bad shape, Senator, including the

carriers.

Senator TOBEY. Except President Truman.

Mr. JOHNSON. He did that himself.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel, we thank you very much. You have len a very interesting witness, and I am sure the committee has zetten some very valuable information from you. This has been a Ty fine session.

Seator TOBEY. Colonel, would you be willing to ask Mr. Patterson, at is the name of the Commissioner who is in charge, if he would tish the committee with a history of the efforts that were made to stall electronic devices or safety devices on trains; what orders have n sent out; what progress has been made to date; and what the sation is, boiled down to the lowest terms? Mr. JOHNSON. I will do that, sir. The information is as follows:)

EDWIN C. JOHNSON,

INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION,

Washington, February 16, 1949.

Chairman, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

DEAR MR. JOHNSON: Commissioner Johnson of this Commission advises me that g his examination before your committee on February 9, 1949, Senator requested him to ask me to furnish your committee "with a history of the is that were made to install electronic devices or safety devices on trains; orders have been sent out; what progress has been made to date; and what tuation is, boiled down to the lowest terms." In compliance with Senator rey request, I submit the following:

te term “electronic safety devices" is a broad term but is apparently used by stor Tobey to mean radio or inductive communication systems for providing unication from wayside stations to train, between the ends of a train, or

one train to another train, and systems that employ principles similar to used in radar to indicate and give a warning of the presence of a train ahead e engineer of a following or opposing train.

storically the railroads were one of the first industries outside the communion held to use safety devices employing electronic principles. This was in design of automatic cab-signal and train-control devices with which experiwere conducted as early as 1916, and actual installations for regular operaLaced in service more than 20 years ago. The cab signal is a device by means ich a signal displayed in the cab of a locomotive indicates constantly to the -teman conditions on the track ahead affecting the movement of a train. train-control device operates to automatically control the speed of the train "ing it to a stop as required by conditions on the track ahead if the engineman not take the required action. The majority of such installations now in re were made in compliance with orders of the Interstate Commerce ComConsiderable progress has been made in the development and use of electronic ment in certain railroad-safety devices and railroad-communication circuits. ay electronic devices are used in centralized traffic-control installations to pro- means of controlling remote stations from the control point by superimposing arer current frequencies on existing wire-line circuits, and for providing direct tive control of railroad signals. Such apparatus as the Sperry equipment for ing flaws in rails and equipment for examining axles for cracks depend on rome devices for their operation. In the field of railroad land line communion circuits, the railroads are one of the largest users of carrier current equip* for providing additional telephone and telegraph circuits on existing line

From the viewpoint of electronic equipment for providing satisfactory commu cation from wayside stations to moving trains, from train to train and betwe the ends of a train, the history of experiments and work toward this end beg with an installation that was tried out on the Delaware, Lackawanna & Weste Railroad in 1914 to provide communication from a wayside station to a movi train. This system was somewhat similar to present systems working on t inductive principle where wayside wires carry the signals to and from the locati of the train and contact is established between the moving train and the waysi wires inductively by use of transmitting and receiving loops on the train.

In 1920 experiments were started on the New York Central with similar equi ment, in which messages were transmitted through carrier circuits using the ra and the wayside wires along the railroad and experiments were begun on t Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad in Montana in which it was attempt to use the electric trolley wires to provide a means of communication. ments similar to those on the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad were co ducted by the New York Central and the General Electric Co. in 1921.

Expe

Beginning in the year 1922, a special research committee of the telegraph a telephone section of the American Railway Association began work with t Radio Corp. of America, the American Telephone & Telegraph Co., the Westin house Electric & Manufacturing Co., the General Electric Co., and the Weste Electric Co. on the problem of providing radio communication with moving trai An outline of experimental installations made between 1922 and 1940 follows: In 1924 the Westinghouse Electric Co. made an experimental installation the Norfolk & Western Railroad.

In 1926 the New York Central and the Zenith Radio Corp. experimented wi space radio between Englewood, Ill., and Elkhart, Ind., and the New York Cent also tried General Electric equipment between Selkirk yard and Utica in 1927. In 1928 the Chesapeake & Ohio and the Westinghouse Co. tried out an instal tion of space radio and this same equipment was later rebuilt and tried out on t Pennsylvania Railroad at Altoona, Pa.

In 1930 the Federal Radio Commission withdrew the licenses for the wa bands that had been assigned for railroad use and the railroads and the compani with which they were working had to start new tests in what is now the hig frequency bands of wave lengths.

Using these high frequencies under special experimental licenses experimen were conducted in 1934 by the Radio Corp. of America on the Central Railro of New Jersey and the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad.

From 1933 to 1937 the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Radio Corp. of Ameri carried on experiments using radio and, starting in 1936 on the Pennsylvan Railroad, the Union Switch & Signal Co. and the General Electric Co. tried o installations of the inductive type.

In 1939 the Great Northern again experimented with the use of trolley wi in electrified territory.

This early experimental equipment either did not provide satisfactory or re able communication or proved too costly to interest the railroads in extensi installations. However, in 1937, experiments with a system based on inducti principles were begun on the Bessemer & Lake Erie Railroad, and in 1940 syster of this type were installed at the Sharonville, Ohio, yards of the New York Centr the Decoursey, Ky., yard of the Louisville & Nashville Railroad, and at a ya of the Pennsylvania Railroad at Columbus, Ohio. In 1941 an extensive expe mental installation of this type of system was made on the Belvidere branch the Pennsylvania Railroad between Trenton and Phillipsburg, N. J. While the installations still left something to be desired to provide the best communicatio they were the first installations to be satisfactory enough to remain in servi any length of time and they are still in service though the equipment is some them has been replaced with modern equipment of better design.

The first successful use of space radio equipment in regular service betwe fixed stations and moving trains appears to have been the use of such equipme in Army ordnance stations during World War II. During the war, radio-d patching equipment was used at approximately 29 ordnance stations with 1 radio equipped locomotives.

In 1944, with the end of the war in sight, military restrictions and priorit were lifted sufficiently to permit the testing of new developments of radio equ ment in the very high frequency region (above 100 megacycles) and experime were renewed with systems employing space radio in the region of 156 megacycl In the years 1944, 1945, and 1946 more than 80 tests of train-communicati equipment, both radio and inductive systems, consisting of approximately