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through the straits, and rivers, and canals, from my observation of his ablity I found he was well qualified in that department.

As for the open waters, that is another question.
Mr. Nix. Then your observation that you referred to enabled you

that he is a man of competency?
Mr. HENDRICKSON. Captain Lowe?
Mr. Nix. Yes.
Mr. HENDRICKSON. Yes.
Mr. Nix. Thank you.
Mr. LENNON. Any questions, Mr. Glenn?
Mr. GLENN. No questions.
Mr. LENNON. Thank you, Captain.
Capt. RoLLA R. JOHNSON. Is he in the audience?
Come around, please.
Do you have a prepared statement !

STATEMENT OF CAPT. ROLLA R. JOHNSON, INTERNATIONAL

ORGANIZATION OF MASTERS, MATES, & PILOTS Captain Johnson. They were mailed in, but I have some others here if you do not have them.

Mr. LENNON. Do you intend to use the statement which you previously furnished the committee, Captain Johnson?

Captain JOHNSON. To save time I would like to request that that be inserted in the minutes and I will hit on it briefly.

Mr. LENNON. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(Prepared statement of Captain Johnson follows:)

STATEMENT OF CAPT. ROLLA R. JOHNSON, PRESIDENT OF THE GREAT LAKES

DISTRICT AND INTERNATIONAL VICE PRESIDENT, MASTERS, MATES, & PILOTS

My name is Capt. Rolla R. Johnson, president of the Great Lakes District, Masters, Mates, & Pilots.

The function of our Great Lakes District is to represent masters, mates, and pilots licensed by the U.S. Coast Guard sailing on the Great Lakes and the seaway.

We have worked for many years toward the passage of a pilotage bill that would protect every American and Canadian sailing these waters. While we cannot term this as the proper pilotage bill, we are giving it our reluctant support, and feel the following recommendations for amendments to this bill should be given serious consideration.

In the Shipping Act of Canada, it clearly states if a pilot is used in Canadian waters he must be a Canadian. H.R. 10593 says the pilotage shall be reciprocal. Will we have the assurance of the Canadian Government that they will stop their discrimination against the American pilots and the American shipowners? This should be plainly defined and agreed to, as far east as Fathers' Point or Fathers' Point west.

As it is a well-known fact the Canadian Government acting on the recommendation of the Shipping Federation of Canada who are agents for foreign shipowners, to issue licenses for these waters to foreigners, regardless of their competency, a salt water license does not qualify a man to pilot the Great Lakes and seaway. It should be stated in H.R. 10593 that only a citizen of the United States or Canada can be licensed by the Coast Guard or certificated by the appropriate agency of Canada.

No provision has been made for an apprenticeship for a master to qualify as a pilot. It is a requirement of our organization for any master before he can become a pilot must make the necessary apprentice trips to prove his competency in handling the vessels.

It is most important to the safety of navigation that this bill provide for apprenticeships. During the 1959 season, there was more than $10 million in damages on the Great Lakes due to collisions, strandings, and sinkings, caused by the inability of foreign masters to pilot these waters. This has increased the insurance rates 55 to 60 percent.

We are in full accord with the rates and charges and other terms for pilotage service be fair and equitable but feel these should be equivalent to our American standards. The highest pilotage bill from our organization in 1959 was $900, billed to the Isbrandtsen Steamship Co., Inc. This was from Cape Vincent to Chicago and return to Cape Vincent, a trip of 18 days duration. A bill such as this certainly cannot be considered exorbitant.

The supervision of the pilotage should remain within the Coast Guard as they are already doing an excellent job. To change this to the Commerce Department at a time when everyone is preaching economy in the Government would not be proper. Also, the regulations of the pilots' fees should be under the direction of the Labor Department.

Inasmuch as Federal pilotage does not completely control the coasts, the Great Lakes States cannot have their rights for State pilotage denied.

The Great Lakes have been pilot waters for many years and areas such as the Strait of Mackinac, Georgian Bay, Green Bay, Saginaw Bay, and many others are critical waters and certainly need the skill of an experienced pilot to navigate them. These waters are much more treacherous than the English ports of Hull, Falmouth, and Southampton. Yet, we are not permitted to enter or leave those waters without using their pilot or paying the fee, or for hat matter could we do it in any other country in the world.

The maritime industry has established an 8-hour day. As it stands at present, the pilotage districts on the St. Lawrence River consist of a 16- to 24-hour run, making it necessary for a vessel to anchor causing many unnecessary delays, if a revision of the pilotage system was made, it would prevent these unnecessary delays.

I wish to thank you for your consideration in allowing our Great Lakes District, Masters, Mates, and Pilots an opportunity to be heard on this very important legislation.

Mr. LENNON. Will you identify yourself and then touch the high spots of your statement, please?

Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir; Mr. Chairman. I would also like to request that a letter from my representative of Masters, Mates, and Pilots in Canada be inserted in the minutes also.

Mr. LENNON. Without objection, it is so ordered. (Information referred to follows:)

PORT DALHOUSIE, ONTARIO, March 6, 1960. Hon. GEORGE HEES, Minister of Transport, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario.

DEAR MR. HEES : Further to my letter of February 24 protesting to you, sir, the issuing of a B license or any license whatsoever by Canada or the United States to a foreign or British shipmaster or “other officers” for open lake pilotage; among other things the letter also said it must be made certain that only a Canadian or American citizen who is a qualified pilot is on call as a pilot aboard ship on a 24-hour basis for open lake pilotage.

I would now like to take this opportunity to recommend to you, sir, how this can be accomplished so that a Canadian or an American citizen who is a qualified pilot will be on board on call for open lake pilotage and many other pilotage duties while aboard in his district. That three pilotage districts be set up on our Great Lakes system in conjunction with the United States and our American cousins of the 1.0.M.M.P. and that our Canadian and American pilotage groups cooperate to the fullest extent.

District No. 1.-St. Regis or Snell Lock, N.Y., on the St. Lawrence River to Port Weller, Ontario. This will take in the canal and Eisenhower lock and Iroquois lock and the St. Lawrence River west of the Snell to Cape Vincent and Kingston; also the east end of Lake Ontario to Point Peter. It will include all the intermediate harbors on the north and south shore of Lake Ontario including Toronto and Hamilton. The Canadian or American pilot then will be on board and on call west of Point Peter on Lake Ontario when needed on a 24-hour basis.

District No. 2.—Port Weller, Ontario to Sarnia, Ontario, or Port Huron, Mich. This district is set up today. It takes in the Welland Canal from Port Weller to

Port Colborne and all intermediate harbors on the north and south shore of Lake Erie, west end of Lake Erie from South-East shoal to Detroit River, the Detroit River, Lake St. Clair and St. Clair River to Huron Lightship at the entrance to Lake Huron. Again the Canadian or American pilot will be on board when needed for open lake pilotage on Lake Erie.

District No. 3.-Sarnia, Ontario, or Port Huron, Mich., to Milwaukee, Chicago, and Gary, Ind. This district will take in the intermediate harbors on the west and east shores of Lake Huron, including Georgian Bay, Straits of Mackinaw, and intermediate harbors on the west and east shores of Lake Michigan, including the harbors on Green Bay. This district shall also include the St. Mary's River, the locks at the Soo, and Lake Superior to Fort William and Port Arthur, Ontario and Duluth, Minn., and all intermediate harbors on the south and north shore of Lake Superior. Again the Canadian or American pilot will be on call for open lake pilotage in this district, on three lakes ; namely, Lake Huron, Lake Michigan, and Lake Superior. This No. 3 district will have to be made into two districts at some future date.

By setting up three districts as mentioned above this will eliminate special harbor pilots as Canadian or American pilots will always be aboard for harbor pilotage in their respective districts.

This will also make a much more efficient operation. It will increase the safety factor considerably and will work in favor of a much improved economical operation.

We must not lose sight of the fact of high insurance rates on account of many accidents. This can be a very costly part of the seaway-Great Lakes operation. All one has to do is to look at the tabulated losses in 1959 to see how necessary it is that a proper pilotage system be set up in conjunction with the United States and both countries' pilotage groups cooperating.

Our organization, the International Organization of Masters, Mates and Pilots, is international in scope. We will be pleased to assist both Canada and the United States to bring about, as smoothly as possible, an efficient pilotage operation in this Great Lakes-seaway area, having in mind at all times safety and economy.

The pilotage fees paid will prevent many accidents and will save many thousands of dollars in shipping losses on account of accidents and costly delays.

Again, sir, I wish to say that we will be only too pleased to come to Ottawa and Washington to talk this matter over with the officials of both countries and that our international organization can be of considerable assistance in setting up pilotage on the Great Lakes and seaway in a proper manner so that all vessels will be able to operate in our Great Lakes system with safety, efficiency, and economy. Yours sincerely,

Capt. NORMAN S. JOHNSTON, Canadian Pilots' Representative and Business Manager, Great Lakes

and Port Weller-Sarnia Pilots, and International Organization of Mas

ters, Mates, and Pilots. Mr. LENNON. When you proceed with your statement, please identify yourself and then comment on your statement.

Capt. Johnson. My name is Capt. Rolla R. Johnson, president of the Great Lakes District of Masters, Mates, & Pilots.

This statement is quite similar to the statement that was made before the Senate Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee and our stand is still the same, that we are reluctantly supporting this bill. We feel that there should be some amendments made.

We are very happy to see a bill that has a possibility of passing. We have been after one since 1937, to be exact. We would be very happy to see anything passed that would make compulsory pilotage on the Great Lakes, and I still feel that the direction should be under the Coast Guard.

I would also like to recommend that the Labor Department set the rates if the rates are set. We will do anything to get a good bill.

I would like to state also I have the highest regard for Captain Lowe, and I do think he was one of the most wonderful pilots Sandy Hook ever had

Mr. LENNON. Sandy Hook?
Captain JOHNSON. New York.
Mr. LENNON. I know.

Captain JOHNSON (continuing). And he knows all there is to know about it, and rather than to go into that, he is a personal friend and I will not say more.

We have many bays and straits in the Great Lakes that are more critical and more dangerous than 90 percent of the compulsory pilotage districts in Europe and Asia, or South America or Central America.

I think that what Mr. Shapiro said is very good, both here and in the Senate hearing. I think he has some good points and I would like to see them put into effect.

Mr. LENNON. Would you enumerate the points that you said you liked in his statement that you would like to see put in this bill in the form of amendments ?

Captain JOHNSON. That the critical areas or districts should be in the bill when the bill is passed.

Mr. LENNON. The general restricted area should be categorically defined in the bill?

Captain JOHNSON. That is right, sir.

Mr. LENNON. Do you like this idea that on subsequent hearings a restricted area could be enlarged based on the necessity and need as it may develop ?

Captain JOHNSON. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. LENNON. What do you think about his proposal that the foreign ships should be designated by the Congress?

Captain JOHNSON. I feel that all foreign ships and American ships under registry should be designated.

Mr. LENNON. And required to have the pilotage license?

Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir; or a pilot aboard of American or Canadian citizenry.

Mr. LENNON. Captain, you identified yourself earlier in the hearing. I think you stated that you were the president of the Great Lakes

.
District, Masters, Mates & Pilots!

Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LENNON. Is that affiliated with any national labor organization ?
Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

We are a part of the international organization of Masters, Mates and Pilots. The actual name is Masters, Mates & Pilots.

Mr. LENNON. What is your membership?

Captain JOHNSON. On the Great Lakes I have a membership of around 600; Canadian, around 53.

Mr. LENNON. Who are dues-paying members of this association of which you speak for today as president?

Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LENNON. Any questions, Mr. Ray?
Mr. Ray. No questions.

Captain JOHNSON. I would like to also state that with respect to the Canadian district between Montreal and Kingston or Montreal and Cape Vincent, we had an agreement with some people several years ago that the pilotage wolud be divided 50–50. We are still waiting for that. The man whom I represent in the Sarnia district and the Great Lakes district, Canadian, are doing everything they can to get the Government to take Americans into that district.

Mr. Ray. What percentage of your total membership is American and what percentage of it of course then is Canadian who belong to this association ?

Captain Johnson. We have 580 members. We have 53 Canadians; that is the best way to define it.

Last year we had only work for 12 pilots, although we had 90 on the list.

Mr. Ray. Captain Johnson, you ask this question and I quote from your statement:

Will we have the assurances of the Canadian Government that they will stop their discrimination against American pilots and American shipowners? This should be plainly defined and agreed to, as far east as Father's Point or Father's Point West.

Speaking as an individual, since this thing has gotten into the proportions that it has and we have gotten away from the clearly defined theory of just safety, where the Coast Guard was primarily interested, we move now into the question of international relations.

The State Department is now in this bill and the Department of Commerce is now in this bill, as well as the Coast Guard, as you readily know.

Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ray. When it comes to the question of ascertaining or determining as to whether or not Canada might discriminate against American pilots, that is something I should think would have to be worked out by the three agencies that are designated by this bill to carry on the work of the bill—the State Department, the Department of Commerce, and of course the Secretary of the Treasury under which the Coast Guard operates.

This committee cannot wait, as one of the witnesses suggested a few minutes ago, for Canada to get a bill. I do not think we can do that because we have had three bills already and Canada has not gotten a bill yet, although both branches of Congress have never finally passed one. If Canada does not reciprocate, then we will have to get some additional legislation.

That would be my thinking.
Captain JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

What I meant by that is not quite 2 years ago one of our pilots was arrested for going beyond the Canadian border when the American ship could not get a Canadian pilot, and this is only to Montreal, where the Great Lakes pilots rules prevail.

Mr. Ray. I think, Captain, you are right, but I think the purpose of this bill is to set the machinery in motion to get a reciprocal bill. We do not have that yet. Either the Canadians or this country must make the first step.

One of us has to pass a bill and lay it down before them and say, “Now, can you give us a reciprocal bill?” If that cannot be done, then of course the Congress will have to take some further action, but

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